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In Reply to: RE: has Eminence ever built 3mm C12cx? posted by djk on July 14, 2007 at 06:05:48
thanks DJK - got a new pair (seem more compliant than 93 model)-- still have old C12CX (~75Hz fs) - APT50 works pretty well - these don't generate much excitement over at the fullrange forum...
are there adjustments to xmax based on other %BL figures? does the fringe field formula hold for thin top plates?
Follow Ups:
a coax is barely tolerated there, kind of like the black sheep of a family. I know coax are allowed according to "their" definitions.
The silver iris site has a forum but they are aimed towards their own 15" coax design.
To me, a coax is a 2 way design, hense taboo on the full range driver forum.
The only accepted 12's there are the hammer dynamics design or the 12lta I think.
http://www.partsexpress.com/pdf/290-409s.pdf
Apt comes in near 3.5k ? seems high for what the driver is doing.
response of cx12 looks not bad (that 5db hump near 1k) then that 2k ringy dingy, but hey, it is a coax.
Norman
and Hammer probably doesn't jhave a lot more HF power response than C12CX - so a coaxial in a Karlson is probably one of the least popular loudspeaker combos known to man (a bastard in a bastard)I like the "idea" of FR - its tough getting the dynamics Silver- Iris is too rough/opaque in places - pipes sound hooty compared to OB, "helper" tweeters are wimpy way of saying some of the damn things don't have highs
APT50 with EM's stock network xovers ~2K8 or so
is BLH with Fostex a best copout? (say "hi" to Mom)
can one get enough dynamic range with a FR in bass reflex? - if the following played a better sounding cello than I've ever heard out of a speaker then would consider
sims
here's Nirvana's Super 10 ('cause reported to have very good highs) in bass reflex
here's gain/baffle step advantage of a 186 liter BLH vs 86 liter reflex
Hiya Fred,
Yea, I can't imagine that the hammer's 12" response is very flat up till that piezo comes in at 10k. But it has bass which is a treat for the full range enthusiast.
The silver iris (15" coax) crosses at 3.5k, which is asking allot from a 15. For extreme high volume pa, maybe but mids vanish off axis or deeper in a room, let alone garbling modulation.
I like my yamaha 3 way with its tweet disconnected (crossed at 13k). It is an 8" running wide open and a 4" mid/tweet with 1 cap coming in near 4k. Cheap paper cones, I have a better cap on the mid/tweet which did help. Maybe it is due to the crossover further from 2k, who knows but I do know certain small 2 ways that get good reviews with high coherency and cable sensitivity that run mid/woof wide open and bring in tweet somewhere above/close to 5k. The 2 way rat shack center channel with yellow cones and 180 degree lineaum ribbon thing sounds much worse in comparison. It's not smooth nor as real sounding.
Blh ? eh, kind of tricky to build, tweaky, more of a resonant transmission line with too small mouth to be considered a horn to me.
I like open baffle as there is no boxiness or chestiness in male voice. But baffle size is not kind. A 24" wide open baffle with a pinhole sized driver would have a dip at 564 (180 degrees out of phase), have a Feq (plus up to 6db) at 282hz (back side is 90 degrees out of phase) and roll off 6db octave for maybe -12db @ 70hz (not including the qts of the driver rolling bass off). But a driver is wider than a pin hole, so to me on a 24" wide baffle, an 8" driver makes the baffle smaller by 2" to the closest edge, so your 24" wide baffle may now seem to be only 20". Or to summarize, 2" in from the woofer frame,I consider the center for front to back cancellation etc.
I use the 24" wide open baffle as an example because 18-24" seems to allow a good amount of front wall bounce to provide the "dipole sound" (otherwise you get a black hole between the drivers, sound only from the speakers). To me when the dipole front wall reflection is mixed with the recording, the total combination helps fool our brain that the reverberation spectrum is closer to where you are. Maybe more of a "they are here" instead of "you are there" feeling. Artificial no doubt, but sounds more real (lol, artificial ambience to make it sound more real). The room is full of sound and most non-audio types are impressed. Me, I like to enclose the back of the driver with 3" thick foam box, no wall bounce and no boxiness.
I'm contemplating a driver (not sure which one) on a baffle 4' by 4'. The driver is exactly 1/2 way top to bottom, 18 1/3" from one side and 29 2/3" from the other. That way there will be no severe dips unlike the visaton "no box" design with a nasty (-10db ?) 600hz dip. I wonder if you hear it or it is more of a microphone thing. Even then the 18 1/3" driver to edge, this makes Feq (+3 to +6db boost) at 185hz, -3db @ 139hz , and -6 @93hz not including if strong motor rolls that off even more, or seeming less due to that feq bump.
But alas, where's the beef?
Bass will distort the poor full ranger easily. For me I'm listening at mouse fart volumes, maybe 50-60db in a small room and I sit <8' away. But I do like some bass. I miss my techno, beasty-boys, nine inch nails, and even disco stuff. Maybe have 1 channel be simple full range on open baffle and the other channel go to an active crossover running open baffle 200-300hz crossing to a couple of 12's under it. One of my favorite setup was a big 3 way loudspeaker on 1 side of the tv and an open baffle on the other. Low volume I ran the open baffle. High volume or when I want bass, I'd use the vega. Mid volume such as quiet movies or when I wanted to hear the vocals easier in music, I run the full ranger at the same time as the vega.
For you ?
Hmmmmm........
That karlson midbass / bass hump will be hard to go away from and/or the cleaner bass. I don't think you'd ever be happy with a small fostex or even a larger one. Maybe once and a while or maybe even a low volume music room because to me it is harder for a 2 or 3 way to sound good at low volumes (think <80db). Bass and dynamics are not a full rangers forte. They give coherency and a rightness. I think I had mentioned it before, while playing video games I had dark side of the moon playing. My head snapped to the speaker as I was thinking "wow, that really sounds like a clock chime." More so than I had ever heard before. I don't put in wooden flutes or bells for any reason. Voice / vocals are also very intelligible. For example understanding mumbling in the movie highlander, straining to understand what is being said should not happen if you have a full range quality driver (ideally not whizzered either, but hopefully a phase plugged either way). Why ? I don't know. I know it is not phase aligned because if phase was kept, it would have increasing highs such as lowthers (see decware site). Whizzers, they are their own thing, kind of a tweet in the middle to me except connected at the voice coil.
I believe having the sound coming from 1 area aids intelligibility. People have stated that coaxs can be highly intelligible and can do the imaging thing. But I haven't played with them so I cannot say I have an opinion.
But alas once the system gets where you want, you may hesitate to put an eq or active crossover in-line as you hear something missing or out of place. I could boost my open baffle to have some bass (fuller) but the sound just wasn't as clear. I know someone with ears far better than mine who put a zobel on speaker and said it "sounded flat" if I remember correctly, measured the same though. Some people describe it as a veil and will not tolerate a baffle step inductor/resistor ckt either. Instead, you learn to deal with the flaws of the system that forces you into certain music types as those sound best on that setup.
I've always entertained the thought of a separate music room and video room as most audio setups don't want a tv sitting between their speakers. But rarely am I just listening to music, so that room would not log many hours.
Good luck,
Norm
not long nuff Norm - but well appreciated - I'll probably need blh to get some semblance of dynamics on drumk - ya know - I could use Ciare CH250 on drum trax listening 8 inches away and not get much - hahahahaha :^) - CH250 ok on middle regions of harpsichord
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