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In Reply to: RE: how diy a snail mid-bass horn posted by freddyi on June 24, 2007 at 12:58:43
see all info's at:
http://perso.orange.fr/georges.farine/pages/11.html
Follow Ups:
are the drivers in any way aligned time wise? especially the midbass-- that might be a dissociative nightmare if it weren't electrically compensated! i'm no expert.. but from my amateur eye...
just wondering..
d.
as his system has active/passive crossover, may he time alignes it electronically, his homepage does not give further details. However, this is certainly the most compromised part.
I'm wondering too ;) !!!!
This system in France is even worse....I'm not sure how he do it.
Hello,
This pictures shows an old version of J.Y. Kerbrat's system.
This is a no limit system and J.Y. Kerbrat doesn't hesitate to becomes official importer-distributor for France of such brands like Goto (or others...)to have the opportunity to improve endlessly his system.
At the listening area, the system is perfectly time aligned using digital delays, crossovers and DSP. Fusion between the different loudspeakers is optimal. Closing your eyes you cannot locate the individual loudspeakers.
From low-mid to high mid this is the most excellent system I could listen to.
The weacker point IMHO is in the low-bass and upper-bass zone inside which the duration of the notes seem excessively enlarged. This is probably due to the very long bass horns. Due to their shape (mouth angle too small, lot of curved parts) they resonate and this cause a prolongation of the notes like in a tuned pipe.
But this remains for me an unforgettable system!
Best regards from Paris,
Jean-Michel Le Cléac'h
Hi Jean Michelwitch is the most impressive/accurate system you have heard so far ?
Are in your opinion the Goto drivers so mutch better than others?another question you man can answer me:
why does Avantgarde in their Trio's use the midrange driver without phase plug?
rds Angelo
Hello Angelo,
Goto drivers have surprinsigly goods sonic results when we consider the quasi artisanal work (the presence of irregularities on the surface of the diaphragms and the suspensions is often questionnable).
You have to know also that Goto doesn't use any measurement method in order to test, select, pair their loudspeakers.
But an excellent sounding system using Goto drivers cannot, IMHO, be obtained unless you use a minimum of 4/5 ways per channel...
The loudspeaker used in the AvantGarde (Community 200 or OEM...) is probably chosen in order to fit with their bass loudspeaker. While there is no phase plug, a little bit of compression is obtained between the outer part of the driver, the suspension and the casing. From the absence of large compression ratio a larger dispacement of the diaphragm results and then a quite high level of distortion (compared to a driver like the JBL245x by example) and a bell shaped frequency response curve. If you use a bit of equalization between 500Hz and 3000Hz then the efficiency fall to 105 or less. IMHO the rear cavity is also too small.
One may notice, that drivers without a true phase plug and using a low compression ratio are also used by Goto but only for their bass drivers...
Best regards from Paris,
Jean-Michel Le Cléac'h
hello Jean Michel
> > > (the presence of irregularities on the surface of the diaphragms and the suspensions is often questionnable)may you know something abought the components used in the Goto drivers ? Someone i know in italy is in a project, to produce drivers similar to Gotos ore Ale's. He has almost all element's together, and is working with a acoustic engeneer with good experience to design the driver. However, he does not have still enough informations abought the frp edge ( Fiber Reinforced Polymer ) suspension. May it be Mylar , fibre reinforced ? what kind of fiber?
if you have fotos, ore know more details abought this subject, ore may be able to indicate someone, that would be great. I am helping out with all info's, i can gather on the net.
> > From the absence of large compression ratio a larger dispacement of the diaphragm results and then a quite high level of distortion (compared to a driver like the JBL245x by example) and a bell shaped frequency response curve.So that seems to be negative...
> > IMHO the rear cavity is also too small.i dont understand, the rear cavity of what ?
rich wrote :
> > The very low compression ratio sounds less 'squeezed' than the typical 10:1 ratio unit.
and this would be a positive effect.
so the question is: does not use a phase plug in this frequency range, in the end, bring better, ore worse results ? also, as it is used this way, probably would it not beam ?
Avantgarde uses a different impedance coil so it requires no attenuation in the network.
don't understand this, Rich.
rds Angelo
Hello Angelo,
About what I called "rear cavity":
Behind the diaphragm of the Community M200 there is a (closed?) chamber, you can see it on the drawing in the pdf document. This cavity is quite small and possess a quasi rectangular axial section. I don't know if it is damped.
About suspension material:
Polyester films (under the trademark Mylar by example)is the favored material. They cab be found in different thickness and eventually reinforced by fibers (Dacron...).
The image of the "poor air" squeezed inside the compression volume between the diaphragm and the phase plug is often used by detractors of compression drivers who promote the direct radiating loudspeakers. Bad compression drivers can for true exhibit resonances in relation with the compression chamber, the phase plug slits, the air volume directly in relation with the coil, etc...
When the compression volume and the phase plug are well designed those parasitic resonances are not audible and there is virtually no negative point to the use of compression drivers if they are used on good quasi infinite horns.
Best regards from Paris,
Jean-Michel Le CLéac'h
"From the absence of large compression ratio a larger dispacement of the diaphragm results and then a quite high level of distortion (compared to a driver like the JBL245x by example) and a bell shaped frequency response curve."
Funny the data sheets don't show either. The JBL2445 on the 2380A has a higher peak/trough from 500hz~4Khz (about 8dB) than the Community does (about 6.5dB), and the Community has much less distortion too (JBL over 10% at 10W at 3.5Khz vs the Community hitting about the same 10%, but with 75W in! Even adjusted for dB down from actual output (the JBL has a peak where the Community has a dip) the Community has less distortion.
http://www.jblpro.com/pages/pub/components/2380a.pdf
http://www.community.chester.pa.us/files/specs/new/m200a.pdf
"If you use a bit of equalization between 500Hz and 3000Hz then the efficiency fall to 105 or less. "
The JBL is only 105dB at 500hz, the Community is 110dB. In the 1Khz region the JBL is 108dB, the Community is 112dB.
"IMHO the rear cavity is also too small."
"rear cavity of what"
Under the diaphragm. Make it bigger if you wish, it is designed for 500hz, but you can open it up and do anything you like.
"and this would be a positive effect."
Yes less distortion and more effortless sound at any volume level.
"as it is used this way, probably would it not beam ?"
It acts like a 2" point source, which is capable of over 90* dispersion to beyond the recommended 4Khz crossover point. Being a dedicated midrange driver dictates a different design than a wide-band unit.
"don't understand this"
The Community is nominally 112dB/2.83V in the 2Khz region where it is about 10 ohms. The Avantgard need it to be only about 107dB/2.83V/1M. Rather than add a bunch or resistors (and many audiphiles don't like resistors when used to attenuate horns), they raise the impedance so the driver draws less power. I am told the version they have made is around 30 ohms (if it was about 20 ohms it would be about 109dB, 40 ohms would be about 106dB).
A few years back I sold these with a money back policy. Most of the buyers already had JBL 2" drivers. No one ever returned a set, they sold their JBLs instead. The Community looks OK on paper, and I think it sounds even better than it looks.
Best results with the Community will be had on a horn without a narrow diffraction slot (ie: a JBL 2380 has a narrow slot, a 2350 or 2397 does not). Those $250 a pair black Tractrix horns on eBay look like they might sound good.
Hi djk,
You just seem to be a living audio encyclopaedia:-) Thanks for sharing!
I have some additional questions that I hope you will respond to:
1. Do you happen to know what kind of 1" driver the Avantgarde Trio uses?
2. Which of the 2" Community drivers (M200, M200A, EM282, or EM280) sound best for hifi mids?
3. Have you had a chance to hear the BIG 4" M4 in a home setup, and if "yes" is it worth the prize for an "all-out" midrange driver?
Thanks a lot!
Regards
Peter
hello peter
one question i can answer you : they use a 1" beyma cp380m.
what i still wonder, is witch mid-bass they use. i guess it's a cheap monacor.
angelo
Hi Angelo,
Thanks for sharing!
Regards
Peter
thanks, Jean Michel .Rich
i will try out a Radian 950 pb. ( do u anyway have experience with this driver ? ) I want to use it up to 5khz. May i get better results then, if i would invert, and use the back radiating part, coupling direct to the horn, as avantgarde does, without phase plug, and no compression ?
Angelo
Hello,
Angelo's question was related to hifi use not professional audio.
In hifi use that's very rare to feed a compression driver having an efficiency larger than 110dB/1W/1m with more than 0,1watt RMS.
On such low signals the displacement of the diaphragm of a compression chamber will be very small compared to a direct radiatior (even horn loaded). Distortion at low acoustic level is fully related to the displacement of the diaphragm. Low diaphragm displacement = low distortion.
At large acoustic level, the distorsion is essentially due to the non linear property of the air itself and that's true that at very high SPL all compression drivers will show high distortion level.
Best regards from Paris,
Jean-Michel Le Cléac'h
"why does Avantgarde in their Trio's use the midrange driver without phase plug?"
Why, does it need one?
It goes to about 4Khz and then drops like a rock.
The very low compression ratio sounds less 'squeezed' than the typical 10:1 ratio unit.
Avantgarde uses a different impedance coil so it requires no attenuation in the network.
wow. that's the driver they are using ? never seen before!
thanks a lot.
Well, you only have to integrate 12 drivers per side. At least that's what I counted. But it seems there is a sub somewhere in the background underneath the bass horn. So that would make a minimum of 13 drivers.
I can recall two previous systems in this same room, all of which fetishize the "surge" approach to sound reproduction. Somehow, the enemy must be slipping away to regroup each time...
Jonathan
i should think that it'd be a full time job just calibrating that one!
yikes.. HP probably gave him a full sponsorship for test equipment..
i love my horns.. but that is a level i don't think i could get to due to the economic collapse it'd incur. guess i'll just live with the imperfections!
d.
thank you very much --whats your impression of its dynamics and fine points?
Hi Freddy,
I clicked on the link in your post and it did some evil stuff to my computer. IE shrank to a tiny box and when I opened up a new browser it was small in size and located to the right so that the size controls were off the screen. Clicking in the blue area to move the window around did not work, so that feature had evidently been disabled. I did get normal IE back with a power down and restart, but I thought I'd pass my experience on for others' benefit.
worked for me so assumed safe - justdeleted it - very sorry - do yo have good adware, virus scrubbers?
are your K15's wings braced? 3/4" dowel struts jammed in without glue from front shelf to wings is one way to listen to effect and reduces some modulation which subjectively pumps up "Q" (like the flexy back panel)
Hi Freddy,
I'm not sure if it was your link or my computer, but things sure did go ape. Thanks.
Haven't ever tried bracing the wings, but it sounds like a good idea. Haven't installed the 2x4 bracing on the backs of these yet, but did drill out the holes and replace the junior achiever wood screws with some decent sized ones.
hi Steve
quit strange .... if i click on the link, my foto blog at flickr opens normally. I gues something on your computer failed. However, you can acess the page where i got the pictures from directly.
http://perso.orange.fr/georges.farine/pages/11.html
that's the configuration of the system:4way active/passive
bass altec 515-8g
mid-bass jbl 2482 with radian alu membranehttp://www.radianaudio.com/products/pdf/high_res/1282.pdf
midrange tad 2001
tweeter jbl 2405
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