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Just wondering if anyone here has measured the values for the Xover caps and tried others.
Thanks
Follow Ups:
A thread, a long, very long thread over in the Lansing Heritage forum went through testing of several drivers. Including some BMS 4550 and 4552nd models. Lots of testing, measuring, experiments.. Very detailed and interesting to read. In several of the measurements, the authors talked about a 19kHz bump and what they did to tame it. Anyhow, when you have a few hours...
Thanks for the link, it is now 56 pages,
Mainly they put out a very nice looking XOver for the BMS 4550 in order to exchange it for the original 806 looking for more extension on top...it seems once they listened to the Valencia with the BMS 4550 and nice flat XO they didnt like the sound that much compared to the original 806 drivers with extra tweeters... I would say around page 43 it starts getting interesting...
Just wanted to save you guys some time.
Very nice effort from these guys.
thanks
:)
The 4592nd only shines when you modify the driver. There is a machined hole in the throat that wreaks havoc with the sound. Dave Adams (Electron-Luv) was here and said the modified driver sounded easily as good or possibly even better than the TAD in one of Kevins horns.
BTW I have an Azura flare 350hz horn. I should post the mod as I took photos as I was doing it. The factory crossover totally blows.
I saw a post earlier today mentioning Kevin and his horns. "Kevin? I know somebody named Kevin. . . . ." I thought. No idea where to start looking.
I'd be grateful if you'd post the mod, and pics of your rig too if you have the inclination.
Thanks
That would be Kevin Brooks. Sorry.
I should post the mod as it is absolutely benificial to getting the last drop.
Probably over the weekend.
I'm just using the 4591 and was wondering if the mod would work here too?
Hi,
Could you please say a bit more about this mod and in what way it makes the driver sound better?
I have used this driver for some time know and would really love to hear more about this mod!!!
Thanks!
Regards
Peter
Ok. the best way to understand the mod is to remove the tweeter. That is very easy to do and you will see the recess that BMS machines into the housing to clear the solder joint for the tweeter leadouts. The problem is that it goes clear through into the compression chamber for the mid.
I used a stainless disk that fit in the recess and epoxied it in. Then place 2 sheets of heavy paper over the disk to insulate it. I also tapped the solder on the tweeter leadouts down so it will not protrude into the paper insulator. It removes a nasal peak in the response and it sounds smoother overall. Look for pics over the weekend.
Bob
Hi Bob,
Thanks a lot for your reply! I really appreciate it.
I have some questions, that I hope you will respond to, but I think I will wait until I see the pictures, because they may answer some of them. I have strugled with these driver for quite a while now and would really like to get the best out of them!
Thanks!
All the best
Peter
anyway, i will soon try out the radian 950 pb, just curious to see witch will perform better.
Yeah like he has a monopoly on modded BMS drivers. I can see why the rave reviews have poured in on his Orphean system. The persons who have heard these horns I have here are simply amazed how instruments seem to just appear from nowhere right in front of you. I have heard horns that seem to project the instruments but these just seem to just happen as if it was there. It is kinda tough to describe. Honestly I am puzzled that a German company would release a product that had such a flaw. My Mercedes seemed to be so over engineered that it was rediculous. Mabye that is why they have that unit that is above the 4592.
i would use the 4592, ore eventually the 4591 only as mid frequency driver up to ~ 5 - 6khz, and a separate tweeter as Peter is doing. should give better results.
About the BMS driver, I have tested this driver and found the hf section harse.
Having said that. the mid driver is quite good.
I spent quite a bit of time on the crosseover and could not tame the top end.
Best Bill
I've been thinking of posting this question and now seems like a good time.
While the only extensive experience I have is with the HF sections of Tannoy and Altec coaxials I think I can say that I like horns, and so would like to ask which ones experienced people think excel at their job. I know from a certain point of view it's hard to say what's best as personal taste obviously has an important role to play (and hearing a great driver poorly implemented could lead one to brand it poor).
I've often shied away from threads with questions like "What's the best amp ? or output tube?" etc. etc. but surely there are horn and driver models (or combinations) that were more successful designs or manufacture than others (in terms of meeting a quality standard that is, not necessarily in terms of sales).
Surfing the web nets too many names and model numbers. Is there general agreement on any particular drivers and horns as being top examples of their species?
Thanks
Well there are lots of good horns and drivers out there. Going 1" I'm keen on the Altec-GPA 902 on either Altec 511-811 horns or on Edgar saladbowls.
I recently bought some new GPA 902s and they sound marvelous; very smooth and silky, first rate clarity. GPA 902s are $210 each, a bargain for a top-shelf compression driver made in The United States.
The Radian 975 also sounds very good to me and also the JBL 2426.
Drivers
Cogent
1428b
TAD series 4000
B+C d900r
Radian 2" neo driver
Horns
Edgar
L' Cleach
Hi RCA,
could you be more specific about the B&C driver, i can't seem to find it.
thanks,
jacob
http://www.bcspeakers.com/index.php?sez=1&categoria=4&id_descrizione=46&prodotto=67
You know, for us poor folks:)
Honestly I have been too embrassed to even bother to ask what prices run. Care to give me some idea what a mid horn runs (good to 250 hertz say).
Russ
Not avaiable yet, but this driver was used in Frazier, Klipshorn
http://www.pasosound.com/Products.shtml
Bill is too modest to recommend his own horns. So I will. They can be found at the Acoustic Horn Company website. Bill also left out the RCA permanent magnet compression drivers because?
Jonathan
Lost Icons
Sorry I was remiss in not noting the RCA 9584 driver. It is the only historical driver available that has superb midrange output. Get one if you can!
I am not modest, just weary of all the hype.
Bill
Hi,
I have used the BMS 4592 ND (16 Ohm) for some time now and my experience is that it is quite difficult to get it work right. I started out with the standard BMS crossover, and in my opinion it is definately not the best solution. Using this you will (depending on the horn) probably have a dip around 5kHz causing lack of presence on for intance human voices.
From Bill Woods (aka RCA-fan) I have got a clearly better crossover than the standard BMS (Thanks Bill!). Using this crossover, the presence is back. However, in my opinion there is still some harshness in the treble, which is probably inherent in the construction of the coax driver. With Bill's crossover the harshness is clearly reduced, but I doubt it can be totally eliminated by any crossover.
Now I only use the BMS mid section of the BMS 4592 ND driver and use a vintage Fostex T825 tweeter as tweeter. This has clearly reduced the harchness further. For the Fostex I also use a crossover from Bill - (thanks again!).
Bill has alowed me to upload the filters in my gallery, and I will - I just haven't come to that yet. But I can send you the schematics of the filters, if you are interested....
All the best
Peter
Hi Peter,
Thanks for your reply ! I'd love to see the filters !
As for the harshness, are you sure that it's not something else? Though I've had mine for a couple of years , I didn't listen to them for long when I first got them because I felt the point source sound of 604 coaxials was much more to my liking, but as I've started to hear subtle distortion in the 604 horns I thought I'd give the BMS drivers one more try before selling them and now am thinking that though the presentation is not the same, the lower distortion is much nicer to hear. Mind you, I'm only using mine froom 1600Hz up and so I suppose that might also have some bearing on things.
The reason I'm thinking about trying other capacitors is not to get rid of problems but rather (hopefully) to let a little more tonal detail through. I'm guessing the stock caps are polyester and if so it's likely a better cap will help.
Hi,
In order to get the filter schematic, you will have to send me and email, so I can return the filter as an attached file. Please note that the schematic is for the 16 Ohm version of the BMS driver.
Opinions vary, of course, but in my view then the real benefit of the BMS coax is that is goes low (250-300 Hz is no problem) and the mid sounds good! If I were to use a driver from only 1600 Hz and up, then I would consider another driver.
Considering the caps alone, then I am usre that they could be better than the ones from the standard filter, but if you are going to change these anyway, then I would try Bill's filter. The number of parts is about the same, but it sounds significantly better.
Regards
Peter
Hi Peter,
The reason for the 1600Hz + use is that it is just a swap out of the Altec horns which are brought in at that frequency. This was just a tryout to see if the distortion I was hearing was from the Altecs or from something upstream. In order to bring the BMS drivers in lower I'd have to do a new line level XO as I'm using the Marchand LC passive and it is not readily adjustable from it's designed for point.
As an aside, in a brief exchange I had with Bill Martinelli a couple of years ago I was told that while the driver is able to get down there it would actually be more desireable not to make it work down that low, a better point to consider being 800Hz or even 1K. Around the same time, a few other horn people said more or less the same thing. I guess there are schools . . . .`,;^)
. . . .Just listened to it again and well yes maybe there's something there that I could call harsh , I'd been using other words to sescribe it so didn't think I agreed when you first posted, but now maybe I do. - It deserves some experimenting . Unfortunately mine are 8 Ohm drivers so the schematic you're offering won't be usefull - Too bad , I'd like to have tried it out. But thanks anyway for your generous offer.
ian
Hi again Ian,
Yes there are definately schools! I wish you good luck on the journey!
Regards
Peter
Could you send me a copy of the XOs for the compression drivers and tweeters? I'm using something similar and have the factory BMS crossover now.
jasonwinslow at yahoo dot com
just replace the at at @ and dot with .
Thanks!
Hi Jason,
I have send you a mail with the filter.
Regards
Peter
hi Peter
i guess with a Jabo75 horn for the bms4592, and your fostex tweeter, you have pretty good results.
Angelo
Hi Angelo,
Well at the time of writing I am using the Bentwood 200 horns, but it is still sounding quite good - at least I think it is the best overall sound I have had here at home! I have not had a chance to try the large Jabo horns yet, but would like to try for sure!
Regards
Peter
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