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for a 10 wpc pure class A tube amp in a smaller room (10x12)? I just got the amp and am not sure of how efficient the speakers should be.
Thanks for your imput!
Follow Ups:
I have lots of experience with monitor speakers in the 92 - 96 dB range run by low powered tube amps, which I have summarized below. I suggest you not get hung up on a single characteristic like sensitivity, although I might guess you will do better with somewhat more sensitive speakers.
There are a few monitors in the 92-96 dB range that do fairly well with low powered (2 – 8 watt) SET amps in a moderate size room. Bass won't be great, but you can get good midrange and good imaging. I have a 12 x 10 home office with a REL Strata III, so bass is not an issue for me although I don’t use it most of the time. Here are a few monitors I have tried in the last couple of years, in order of my personal preference:
1. Coincident Triumph Signature UHS, Extreme Version - neutral presentation, excellent imaging, speakers disappear, wonderfully transparent, smooth and highly detailed mids, bass not as deep, but tighter than other monitors
2. Reference 3A MM De Capo i - good clarity and imaging, smooth midrange and nice tight bass, highs good, big soundstage, slightly rich sounding
3. Cabasse Goelette 500 - slightly forward, outstanding clarity, good strong midrange, wide soundstage, highs very good, tight bass (can change woofer phase for more bass)
4. Reimer McCullough GS - Big, slightly warm sound, best bass in a monitor, detail very good, good smooth mids
5. Coincident Triumph Signature UHS - recessed presentation, excellent imaging, speakers disapear, smooth and detailed
6. Galante Raphpsody - warm & sweet midrange, limited highs, imaging only good, detail good, sound veiled compared to the best
7. Omega TS1R - slightly forward, good mids, good highs, lack transparency of best monitors but a great value for the $
8. Omega Super 3 - slightly forward, clean mids, ok highs, fast sounding, bass lacking
9. Adire HE 10.1 - good midrange, lacks detail and highs, nice bass
10. Klipsch RB-35 - good bass, but mids too fatiguing, even after 30 days of break-in
11. Loth X BS 1 - forward mids, weak highs, shouty and fatiguing
If you want a copy of my Excel file with the specs, descriptions and prices on these monitors, send me an email and I will email it to you.
Although formal reviews and online forums can be interesting and give you some ideas of what to try, there is no substitute for using your own ears in your own system. I pretty much guarantee that no reviewer or forum participant has the same equipment, room acoustics, music tastes and personal listening values as you do. After my first few disappointments with purchasing well reviewed gear and not liking it very much in my system, I decided I was the only reviewer that counts. So I went with the “buy, compare and sell” strategy. It means I have to come up with the cash to buy that next component (often used) before selling my old one, but I think it is worth it. The first time you buy that next well reviewed component and find that you don’t like it as much as your present one, you won’t have to kick yourself for selling your old one. Good listening.
Hi Rick,
I would appreciate the Excel sheet with your SET speaker findings. I'm leaning towards the Coincident Triumph's.
Thanks,
Al
adaddario@hotmail.com
Rick---Around here when we're talking monitors we're usually talking big-hog pro speakers: Altec 604s, Urie 813s, JBL 4430s and such. You know, monitors. ;-)
Tom,
I suppose I should have said, “Monitors, as in the generally accepted term used for smaller home audio speakers with limited bass response, differentiating them from full range home audio speakers. The term Monitor, as used here, should not be confused with the terms Studio Monitor or Pro Monitor, describing the wonderful speakers originally developed for the recording industry, but often used by audio enthusiasts. Many of these Studio Monitors are full range speakers of large size and high enough efficiency to use with low powered amplification.”
I can’t quite imagine a pair of Altec 604’s in my home office, because I need room for my desk and file cabinets.
i CAN imagine 604's in my office.. or mebbe some big urei's...
course... i can imagine being president, being wealthy, living in a larger house that'd accomodate a big office, and dating supermodels..
damn reality..
d
You're a good sport Rick. Sorry.
I doubt it. I had B&W Matrix 3's and tried tubes, PP EL34's approx 35W. It was impedance load hell, the amps simply HATED the B&W's. Had to mess with the stock feedback circuit to keep them from motor-boating.
I quickly moved to horns.
BTW, congrats on uniting the forum. Tom and the pussy agree? WOW!!
Listen to the system.
-------------------------------------------------------
Tin-eared audiofool and obsessed landscape fotografer.
http://community.webshots.com/user/jeffreybehr
you have to pay attention to Flecther Munson (sp?). Below something like 90 dB you have to boost the bass to get realistic levels.
Jim N
Hello Mark
dont know what you listen to.. but if its only only simple music:
say voice+ 1 more slow instrument, you MAY be able to get away with
10 w/channel on 90db.. for most other types of music you will not be
able to do full justice to the performances. they would probably sound
dead.
here is my rule of thumb (i listen to all types of music)
88db(vandersteen/harbeth/spendor class): 100 w/channel MIN
93db(tannoy class) = 35 w/channel MIN..but I like 200 w/channel
103+db(altec/jbl class) = 20 w/ch MIN.. but I like 55 w/ch w/ bi-amping
i like to hear voices in full splendor with all nuances and to hear separation between instruments and i like to hear the skin on drums and the strings on violin...etc.. the extra power brings this out easily...unfortunately, its hard to get
high quality high power amps that are clean/neutral/musical/reliable... so best to get very hi-efficiency speakers
and get a moderate power great amp that is friendly to the speakers
rgds
m
You can check my post to a similar question on the SET forum.
Just a note for a newbie - on this forum you will find a disproportionate number of listeners who prefer very loud music, or very high overload margins, or both. On SET you will find a disproportionate number of listeners who have learned to live, and even be happy, with loudness and overload limitations. Like a liberal reading the Wall Street Journal editorial pages, you can get a lot from either forum once you have calibrated their prejudices against your own. Until then, the risk of emotional distress is significant. I recommend (tongue firmly in cheek) small doses with meditation in between. Yoga helps too.
As some have hinted it depends a lot on the type of music/recording and its dynamic range.
Ten watts is an unusual number for a class A(1) tube amp, what do you have? Also the impedance of the speakers is often more important. So really more info is needed.
Russ
The amp is a Sophia Electric Baby. The speakers in question are B&W 602 s3 so they are an 8 ohm load.
I have actually heard that amplifier with, believe it or not, 90 db speakers, in a medium sized room. The particular setup I heard ran out of steam, especially in the bass. I'd use at least 95 db with that amplifier.
Grazie
Amante
Amante,
Thanks for the reply. I think that you may be right. I was using the baby amp with Klipsch Heresy's, and it got loud enough, but barely so. Would a solid state amp - like a HK430 work better (its 25wpc but has a twin powered design and sounds like a much bigger amp)?
HI Makscopes,
I think the 25 watt solid state would work better than the Sophia, in terms of bass. You should keep in mind it would probably not give you that "tube" magic you are looking for. One other option is to look at a good push pull amplifier, using el84 or el34 tubes. The ones with toroidal output transformers tend to have good bass response and still provide that tube depth to the sound.
Check out
200113279610 on ebay as an example of such an amplifier.
Grazie
Amante
definitely 8 ohms nominal-- but B&Ws have multiple impedance peaks, and my tube amps HATED them-- the 601 and the cdm1se. consequently.. me too.. they're long gone!
the NOMINAL impedance listed is fairly farcical-- see if you can find a REAL graph to see what's going on if you're interested.. but from what i used to hear when i lived with with them-- they were monstrous compressors, and not really suitable for low watt amps with the big impedance peaks. they'd definitely get shrill as a firehorn when under stress.. which didn't occur with some big watt SS amps to the same degree.
i think a lotta folks run headlong into the 'modern standard' of squirrely impedances when they start down the tube road... all of a sudden, speakers sound wierd... and you definitely realize that there's a major standard mismatch!
yrs
d
HI,
Sorry on behalf of regular posters, if you were offended. FYI, I think Tom & Romy are different people, not the same person. And I am neither, just so you know: a different person.
I think you pretty much have the answer you need: assuming you listen 1t around 80 db if you are OK with 20 db swings (which is usually plenty for mpst PM unless you listen to large orchestral pieces that are well recorded) it should be fine. Enjoy and tell us your experiences after you have listened for a while.
grazie
-Amante
depends on the ohm load but I have used fostex f200a a 90db 1 watt 8ohm full range with under 10 watts and they work very well you will limit peak SPL but who listens that loud anyway and if you do you wont be for long;)
if the load is an easy one from the 90db/w spkrs.
Noting that small untreated rooms - depends on their materials / construction - can reach their own overload point / shreeek point well before 101 db, and do bear this in mind. If yr speakers go at all below 35hz you'll be well into the problems before the amp clips!
IMO a 20 to 40 watts is needed for NICENESS even in your room.
My spkrs are an easy (> 8 ohm) load 91db/w and they need all of the 26 watts I feed them with in a smallish l-shaped lounge dining room. We listen almost in the near field!
If you never listen REALLY LOUD 10 watts may be enough, but I would syill be making the PSU a LOT bigger
WarmestTimbo in Oz
The Skyptical Mensurer and Audio ScroungerAnd gladly would he learn and gladly teach - Chaucer. ;-)!
'Still not saluting.'
http://www.theanalogdept.com/systems_gallery.htm
I am going to use B&W 602 s3's which are bookshelf speakers. I think that they are -6db at 56hz - so no real deep bass here. From what I understand they are a real easy speaker to drive as well.
I am starting to wonder if I should use my vintage, but restored, Harman Kardon HK-430 amp. It is only 25wpc, but its twin power supply design seems to deliver much more power with dynamics than the Sophia Baby amp that I am considering using.
Who knows?
In any event pick speakers because you like the sound not because they're this or that efficiency. Oh wait, you have the cart before the horse.
Tom,
Is there any post that you make that is not sarcastic in nature? Your non-response is a waste of bandwidth. I am new to tubes and am asking a question to learn. Perhaps you should take your negativity elsewhere or channel it into something constructive.
Hey, I really enjoy Tom´s sense of humor and anyway I dont think 90 db cut it as High Efficiency....
I tried 12 watts pure class A on 90 db speakers and it didnt work out. For full orchestral swings 40watts had trouble with those speakers, I fixed it with a Metaxas preamp (very dynamic beast), one of the best systems I had.
94 db speakers I think is the limit for 12 watts... (I didnt try my 10 watt amps on those)
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