Hip Pop Stop

• It's hard to really know what an artist's intentions are... - SF tech 23:42:17 09/24/08 (1)
  In Reply to: RE: Dave C: point of follow up from Posts below re: JD posted by Sordidman on September 20, 2008 at 09:26:51

  Unless you're close to the person.
  
  Even then, it's a crap shoot.
  
  Joy Division rocks.
  
  SF
  
  “I don’t care if people hate my guts; I assume most of them do. The important question is whether they are in a position to do anything about it.” - WSB
  
  

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  • Oh yeah.... - Sordidman 16:10:04 09/29/08 (0)
    In Reply to: RE: It's hard to really know what an artist's intentions are... posted by SF tech on September 24, 2008 at 23:42:17

    You're absolutely right, and I would hope that that foundation is definitely there in our speculations and comments surrounding the thread.
    
    I guess at the end of the day, my opinionated point was that "24 Hour Party People" was a better representation of the group and events; and was far more interesting to me, (FWIW), than "Control:" which left off the art, and the character development that was more prevelant in "24HPP."
    
    But as you say, what do I know? And, one can't even get close to understanding, and asserting an understanding of intentions from such a far away position. (And that definitely holds true even though it may come from similar people, in a similar position, around the same time period).
    
    Cheers,
    
    
    

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    If you think you're going to faint, go out in the hallway

    
    
    

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• errr... I'm ready for my close up now... - dave c 14:31:33 09/22/08 (6)
  In Reply to: RE: Dave C: point of follow up from Posts below re: JD posted by Sordidman on September 20, 2008 at 09:26:51

  "One would think that watching that film, that Joy Division were simply a northern England rock band. WTF??"
  
  S'man, to Debbie Curtis wasn't a star, a poet, a performer or anything other than a man who was her husband and the father of her child.
  Your sense of an apocalyptic early-Thatcherite north of England may be pretty accurate in a Blake-ian satanic mills way, but that was just life in a northern town.
  It's grim oooop there.
  But at that time Manchester and the north east in general had a good claim to have replaced London as both party and culture central.
  Joy Division came out of a healthy music scene and if the clubs and venues were not much by today's standards then they weren't much anywhere in Britain, and believe me I used to go to them all over the country far too much!
  But there was not a great sense of being ground down in those scenes.
  Also there are a lot of people who are prone to fits and they do not all kill themselves.
  Now it is a moot point whether or not it is better to be in a position where some type of fit is seen by your audience as part of the "performance" and post punk Britain had become the atrocity exhibition that that suggests.
  The Warholian NY scene had been lionised for some time, aging junkies and beat poets were all the rage. Iggy was having one of his periodic rebirths.
  Something had to bring Nico to Salford!
  Although if memory serves me correctly she was living in London at that time. I only really remember seeing her around London, not the north east, but that might be anything from bad memory to coincidence.
  Anyway, there was a support network around Manchester and Curtis was, I think, seen as someone special within that.
  So his life could have been a lot worse.
  For every Curtis there are a thousand other young wanna-bes taking boring jobs and waving goodbye to secondary school poetry, taking wives and mortgages who do not kill themselves.
  I think you are unfair to dismiss Debbie as a "jilted, bitter, young housewife who neither understood the significance of the music, nor Ian."
  First, I think you misused "jilted", but who wouldn't be bitter after their spouse committed suicide?
  And was literally left holding the baby, as she had done each time he went off on tour, to record or whatever.
  Did they marry too young? Of course.
  But, at least to my way of thinking, you stand by your responsibilities.
  This was not a case of a highly talented young man being held back by a shrewish woman.
  It wasn't.
  But of a troubled man whose signalling for help was seen as "art", as "performance", and who was ultimately, in my opinion, let down by those around him.
  His safety net had a rip through it.
  Curtis found a too strong appeal in the 18/19th century vision of the sick artist; and so did his audience.
  I know that he did not enjoy the music BUSINESS, in the sense of touring and everything that went with it, any more.
  But I don't think he had any idea of what to replace it with.
  As an aside, I had previously worked with a circus (a proper circus!) and Curtis was not the only person/muso/punker fascinated by that older form of travelling show.
  Seen as a place where freaks and all sorts of outsiders could find a home.
  The reality is not as comforting.
  The band was certainly the way out for all of them.
  Traditionally in working class Britain it is either boxing or soccer and since the 60s, music and fashion had added alternatives to the mix.
  My roots in the east end of London were not so different.My dad played for Arsenal youth teams but went back to the factory (literally) to pay the rent.
  I trialed for West Ham.
  Everyone from that background (who can conceive of it) wants a way out.
  That is the nature of the British class structure.
  But do you think Curtis caved in because he couldn't see past the grim greyness?
  He of all people was actually in a position to "get out".
  He was the last person who would/should/could have given up under the weight of British history.
  Perhaps, like Morrison, (in my opinion) he found his newly made world a bit of a let down.
  Every bit as superficial and cheap as the one he had left behind.
  Morrison chose to hide his good looks under fat and a beard, disdainful of his own golden goose.
  Curtis was different.
  Ultimately, and before I start to think of the chances of turning this into a book, I think he was a coward.
  Rather than face the consequences of his own choices and the hand he was dealt, but with a future that 99% of people would take in a flash, he gave up.
  He couldn't face it.
  He wasn't a heroic figure. He was a man.
  He wasn't a godlike artist who could have saved the world. He was a man.
  If you think that "most importantly, he was keenly aware of Herzog" outweighs "a stupid, insipid, whiny, stereotypical northern English housewife" then that is your choice to make.
  But in view of your awareness of class strictures and oppression I am surprised at those words.
  If you think that he couldn't face the "subtle, evil, socialized oppressions that prevent anything from ever changing" then that is your choice.
  But I think he couldn't face himself.
  
  I haven't gone back to rewrite or edit this so any errors are as they are.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  

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  • Thanks for your comments; - Sordidman 13:51:28 09/23/08 (3)
    In Reply to: RE: errr... I'm ready for my close up now... posted by dave c on September 22, 2008 at 14:31:33

    but I stand by mine....
    
    I don't disagree with your opinion that Ian's suicide was a cowardly act, nor do I agree with it either. I just don't judge it and in hindsight can take it as logical extension of ALL of the pieces involved with making him who he was.
    
    Of course many folks will assert that that "tortured artist" stereotype is self-indulgent bullshit and a cop out. But then, I'm no one to judge what someone is feeling inside, and whatever it was/is, and whatever chemicals, family responsibilities, business factors, may be making them "feel" a certain way.
    
    My fundamental "problem" with the movie is that Ian, the band, and the philosophy, and the factors surrounding everything about them was NOT COVERED .
    
    JD was a "different" band/art/embodiment of a philosophy. They were special, they were outside. I think that they were "above," but that is a terrible description. Certainly, the Fall, Buzzcocks, G.of F., etc. etc. were just not in the same league, and history is, and will continue to, reflect that. JD was able to tap deep down in, and do it in a way that few others have and will be able to do. No, they were not gods, and certainly not perfect: but there was a confluence of many factors, (and I'm including Martin Hannett), that came together to make the whole more than the sum of the individuals, and elevated the individuals as well. I've seen surprise on their faces as they played, wondering what was going on. They were tapped into some deep, dark, pure, embodiment of death, or the futility of existence, almost on a primordial level. No one else, except for maybe Kafka, and stretching it a little, Herzog, - put their finger on the button like that. And not to take it too far, but, death rock was their creation.
    
    The fact that Ian was a Herzog fan, was only mentioned by me to point out that films like Aguirre, Fitzcarraldo, and Stroczak shared a similar artistic sensibility and namely futility against an overpowering bureaucracy or phenomenon, (natural, or more insidious; unthinkingly man-made).
    I mention Herzog and Kafka and Hannett, because there were many factors which made up who Ian was, and many factors came together to make JD who they were; and both Ian's life and death had far more to it than the movie touched on.
    
    The Doors movie presented Jim Morrison in a much more complicated light.
    
    And Joy Division and Ian were so much more significant, influential, original, and complex than the Doors. One would know nothing of that by watching Control...
    
    I don't mean to imply that Deborah Curtis was extraordinarily stupid, or purposely left out material. I think that she presented her "take" on the whole thing, (and in consequence her lack of understanding). Perhaps I was a bit hard on her; but at some point, somebody, should've stood up and recognized that their story was looking like a documentary and they should've taken measures to explore a few more pathways that addressed the uniqueness, wonder, originality, and sheer complexity that made up the events, relationships, and characters involved during that time.
    
    There are 10 billion stories of love triangles, and wives cheated on, and tortured artists suicides; the interesting, compelling, and important story of JD encompasses much much more than the overwhelming blandness of a hurt housewife.
    

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    If you think you're going to faint, go out in the hallway

    
    
    

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    • not wishing to appear rude, but I probably will be taken that way... - dave c 14:24:33 09/23/08 (2)
      In Reply to: RE: Thanks for your comments; posted by Sordidman on September 23, 2008 at 13:51:28

      "JD was a "different" band/art/embodiment of a philosophy. They were special, they were outside. I think that they were "above," "

      I think you put great faith in a few performances and a handful of thin pieces of plastic.
      They were a bunch of kids. They were a band and were not about to perform an act of transformation upon the world.

      "Ian, the band, and the philosophy, and the factors surrounding everything about them was NOT COVERED."

      I really don't know how you can say that.
      Anton Corbijn knew the band, worked with them.
      Peter Hook commented on the ending at a preview screening: "when it really hurt and everybody started clapping. It would've been nice to have a dignified silence".

      When I saw the film at its Australian premiere at the 2007 Brisbane International Film Festival there was that silence. Personally I thought the scene was devastating. And I admire the comments of the rest of the band (in real life) whose reactions (in the film) do not show them in the very best light.

      "Joy Division and Ian were so much more significant, influential, original, and complex than the Doors."

      Whilst it could be said that JD joined the Velvets in that legend of whom it could be said that everyone who bought their first record formed a band (apart from me it seems!), I think you are talking about something else.

      "they should've taken measures to explore a few more pathways that addressed the uniqueness, wonder, originality, and sheer complexity that made up the events, relationships, and characters involved during that time."

      It sounds to me as if the band/scene/moment meant something very special to you, although you have not responded to my question of whether you might have been there at the time, but I have to say that if you are looking for salvation or transcendence via a rock group, you will always be sorely disappointed.

      "the overwhelming blandness of a hurt housewife"

      If you place Curtis on a pedestal and/or are touched by his work, that is obviously up to you, but to write off the fact that he chose to kill himself in a way guaranteeing that he was found by his wife and child is to deny his humanity, his frailty... AND his cowardice.

      
      
      
      

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      Edits: 09/23/08
      • RE: not wishing to appear rude, but I probably will be taken that way... - Sordidman 15:33:09 09/23/08 (1)
        In Reply to: RE: not wishing to appear rude, but I probably will be taken that way... posted by dave c on September 23, 2008 at 14:24:33

        "" if you are looking for salvation or transcendence via a rock group "
        
        I think that it's a really big stretch to say that I am looking for salvation; because I think that JD were more than just another great band. Even if one thinks that they were the best band ever: which I would admit to i guess; I still am not looking for any kind of salvation. I can say that they were great, in the same sense that Kafka was great, and Edward Munch was great, and Herzog, - etc.
        
        I am a songwriter and lead bass player: (or was)! And JD had more than a little influence on me, as they did with many others as well. One can definitely hear JD in our music; but one can definitely hear Genesis, PG, GofF, the Clash... as well. So, the concept of therapeutic art, although understood in perhaps a different light, is more compelling. AND, the story of the gestalt of the band and Martin Hannett leaving this world through their music is not addressed in the film, and is the most compelling part!!
        
        "" might have been there at the time "
        
        Was in Leeds and into music and taking it all in. I got to see Gang of Four, Clash, etc, but circumstances prevented me from seeing JD live, - unfortunately. Had pals who were way into them and they got me hooked on JD, the Fall, GofF, Clash, etc. etc.....
        Again, I don't want to imply that I know more than anyone else, or have any major insights beyond analysis already rendered....
        
        "" If you place Curtis on a pedestal and/or are touched by his work, that is obviously up to you, but to write off the fact that he chose to kill himself in a way guaranteeing that he was found by his wife and child is to deny his humanity, his frailty... AND his cowardice. ""
        
        Nope. Neither put him on pedestal, nor do I call him a coward. I have no judgment, especially about his suicide. I am sorry that he killed himself before I got to see the band live. If Ian had not killed himself, JD may have gone on to make some great music, they may have gone on to make shite: I don't know... I certainly recognize the roll Martin Hannett played as well; and that should not be discounted, and it wasn't touched on that much at all. Ian's relationship with Bernard, all kinds of stuff.
        
        Both the band and Deborah had a lot of things to say at various points. Sometimes, they were very contradictory. In a moment of what I believed to be total honesty; Deborah said that "Ian wanted to kill himself, and that's what he was thinking about."
        
        Both PH and Bernard always had varying things to say depending on the level of respect they had for the person asking the questions: which is really understandable.
        
        Perhaps I'm placing WAAY to much importance in who JD were, and what they meant to music, and to art. (AND, I think that you're saying so). So, I'll reflect on that, as is natural for me to do.
        
        But watch out, I love the Gang of Four too; so you may see a tirade from me regarding their upcoming movie!! :-) :-) :-)
        
        "" guaranteeing that he was found by his wife and child is to deny his humanity, his frailty... AND his cowardice ""
        
        In the sense that you say that I'm focusing on putting Ian on the pedestal: (I think that I'm focusing on the art of the band) you seem to be focusing on the tragedy of Ian's selfish act of suicide and how horrible it was to do that to his family.
        
        I don't agree, or disagree, but I think that that is a more minor, and less interesting, part of the story that encompasses the entire band and the events of that time. 24 Hour Party People was so much better. Control seemed to be presenting us a limited, one-sided, and incomplete historical documentary that left so much important work completely untouched, with incredibly superficial character exploration of most ALL of the players involved.
        
        Anyway.. I've gone on about this way more than I wanted to... and repeated my point too much....
        
        I'd just like to say again that I appreciate very much your perspective, as you were there more than I was there, and that carries an important amount of weight...
        
        Cheers,
        
        
        

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        If you think you're going to faint, go out in the hallway

        
        
        

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        • Leeds you say... - dave c 21:39:40 09/23/08 (0)
          In Reply to: RE: not wishing to appear rude, but I probably will be taken that way... posted by Sordidman on September 23, 2008 at 15:33:09

          Gang of 4, Clash, etc.
          Then I guess you were paying my wages!
          I used to do a lot of work for Straight Music who promoted those bands and many others. I used to handle publicity and some event management so I was around Leeds a lot at that time.
          We also did some of those weekends at... was/is it the Kings Hall Queen Street or the Queens Hall King Street?
          The huge old tram shed sliced in half by a brick wall...
          Daze Of Future Past I seem to remember.
          
          Anyway I, even if it seems different, am loathe to slag off someone for being a fan!
          To my way of thinking, there is no contradiction when, say, Deborah and the band say things at odds to each other. They had different perspectives and may even have heard different versions of things.
          It's now history and we know history is bunk!
          NO one knows what Curtis would have done. Let's face it, most of even the best are burnt out within... 5years... 10 at a push.
          So a 50 year old fat bald Curtis might not be the same... and certainly Hannet pulled something out of their music which maybe even they hadn't heard.
          
          "Perhaps I'm placing WAAY to much importance in who JD were"
          
          If they were important to you then they were... no two ways about it. But musicians are like the rest of us, they have lives away from music, families, illnesses, mortgages...
          And often their own concerns are not how they project in music.
          Many of those who have written the most insightful songs are not the nicest people.
          Look at Dylan.
          Actually, look at almost everyone.
          Mad bad or dangerous to know.
          Not many can cover all 3!
          24 Hour Party People and Control would make a wild double bill!
          
          By the way I don't think it is unusual for people to seek transcendence through music, but for me at any rate, that should not be confused with the person, the "star".
          
          
          
          
          

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  • RE: errr... I'm ready for my close up now... - Squonk 15:00:43 09/22/08 (1)
    In Reply to: RE: errr... I'm ready for my close up now... posted by dave c on September 22, 2008 at 14:31:33

    Thanks Dave. I really enjoy the stories from people like yourself who were 'involved' in the scene. As far as Ian Curtis goes, to me at least, it just seems all too typical. Really. The music business definitely isn't for everyone. It sure didn't take me long to realize it wasn't for me many years ago. And, it seems the more success they receive, the more fucked up in the head they become. I mean, with some people, when enough people tell them they are a God, they start to believe it. And this is just my limited opinion from what I read or hear about. I would imagine, from your experience in the biz, you could come up with a much larger list of fucked up 'stars'.
    
    
    

    
    
    

    
    
    

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    • "every man and woman a star" - dave c 15:04:02 09/22/08 (0)
      In Reply to: RE: errr... I'm ready for my close up now... posted by Squonk on September 22, 2008 at 15:00:43

      Perhaps you would like to tell us of your involvement in the "biz"?
      
      
      

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• Thanks DaveC: looking forward to your comments - Sordidman 20:23:03 09/20/08 (9)
  In Reply to: RE: Dave C: point of follow up from Posts below re: JD posted by Sordidman on September 20, 2008 at 09:26:51

  Couple of quick ones....
  
  1. Never meant to imply that JD was successful, but, they were excited about their business, art, and upcoming tour(s)...
  
  2. Not so sure that Ian needed "grounding" others would know better.
  
  3. The main point that I was trying to make was that JD and Ian's story was far more than his whining wife, and the love triangle. Bernard and Ian were far, far, closer friends, and shared more ideas, than was portrayed. Again, I too want to stay away from the whole suicide thing: I only brought it up as another point that Deborah glossed over that and didn't dig deeper in regard to that either...
  
  Cheers,
  
  

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  If you think you're going to faint, go out in the hallway

  
  
  

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  • It's going to be tomorrow... I may not be at my most sensible... - dave c 07:05:49 09/21/08 (8)
    In Reply to: RE: Thanks DaveC: looking forward to your comments posted by Sordidman on September 20, 2008 at 20:23:03

    ... I've been out drinking by the river in the heat...
    
    
    
    

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    • RE: It's going to be tomorrow... I may not be at my most sensible... - Squonk 09:13:02 09/22/08 (7)
      In Reply to: RE: It's going to be tomorrow... I may not be at my most sensible... posted by dave c on September 21, 2008 at 07:05:49

      We're still waiting.
      
      
      
      
      

      
      
      

      
      
      

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      • bloody hell, it's not exactly the second coming you know! - dave c 13:34:50 09/22/08 (6)
        In Reply to: RE: It's going to be tomorrow... I may not be at my most sensible... posted by Squonk on September 22, 2008 at 09:13:02

        
        
        "Curtis was a naughty boy; a very naughty boy."
        
        

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        • Settle down you old Geezer. - Squonk 09:05:22 09/23/08 (5)
          In Reply to: RE: bloody hell, it's not exactly the second coming you know! posted by dave c on September 22, 2008 at 13:34:50

          
          
          

          
          .
          
          
          

          
          
          

          
          
          

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          • Jeeeeeeeezzzzzz..... - dave c 14:25:42 09/23/08 (4)
            In Reply to: RE: Settle down you old Geezer. posted by Squonk on September 23, 2008 at 09:05:22

            ..... if you want to see an old geezer, I'll take a photo of Sam Cutler next time he comes over!
            
            

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            • LMAO! - Squonk 14:57:31 09/23/08 (3)
              In Reply to: RE: Jeeeeeeeezzzzzz..... posted by dave c on September 23, 2008 at 14:25:42

              Oh yeah, I read up on Sam Cutler and yes he does indeed reside in Ozland. Were you serious when you said you know him personally? If true, the genius reply would be, "Serious as a heart attack", and use the same pic I used in my previous post.
              
              
              

              
              
              

              
              
              

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              • Serious as... - dave c 15:17:19 09/23/08 (2)
                In Reply to: RE: LMAO! posted by Squonk on September 23, 2008 at 14:57:31

                Sam lives about 10 minutes from me and was over yesterday afternoon to drop off a copy of his autobiography which is published here on the 1st of October.
                
                

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                • Very impressive Dave. - Squonk 17:44:53 09/23/08 (1)
                  In Reply to: RE: Serious as... posted by dave c on September 23, 2008 at 15:17:19

                  So you were a 'Major Dude'. Very cool. I've never even met or seen a famous person so I guess I am easily impressed with those who have not only met, but actually KNEW some famous people or VIPs in the music biz.

                  p.s. I took your advice and no longer desire to meet any of my childhood heroes.

                  
                  

                  
                  
                  

                  
                  
                  

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                  Edits: 09/23/08
                  • ground control to major dude... - dave c 21:48:37 09/23/08 (0)
                    In Reply to: RE: Very impressive Dave. posted by Squonk on September 23, 2008 at 17:44:53

                    Young men given large, unfeasibly large amounts of money, alcohol and drugs and easy access to more sex than they could even imagine are not known for hanging on to their most likable traits!
                    
                    
                    
                    
                    

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• Joy Division: only a northern song - dave c 14:07:45 09/20/08 (0)
  In Reply to: RE: Dave C: point of follow up from Posts below re: JD posted by Sordidman on September 20, 2008 at 09:26:51

  That's a long and thought provoking post, S'man.
  I hope you don't mind if I take a while to reply in depth or hopefully so), but a couple of points:
  "He was in love with two women and felt obligated to them both, one of which may have actually understood him. But, most importantly, he was keenly aware of Herzog"
  
  This may sound shallow, but if you had been able to write (and this is about HIM not YOU):
  "He was in love with two women and felt obligated to them both, one of which may have actually understood him. But, most importantly, he was keenly aware of having a child with one of them"
  then he may have found the grounding which he clearly needed and wanted.
  Although he may well have felt a responsibility to the rest of the band, they were by no means rich at that time and in fact NO were one of the most successful bands of that (next?) era.
  It's only 7.00AM here and I will get back to this later today.
  But... where were you "a little later"?
  Manchester? Or did you work with the band? Factory?
  
  
  

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• Wow. - Squonk 10:57:26 09/20/08 (1)
  In Reply to: RE: Dave C: point of follow up from Posts below re: JD posted by Sordidman on September 20, 2008 at 09:26:51

  Having an infinitesimal knowledge of Ian and JD, I just spent about an hour intensely researching and studying both. Extremely interesting. But, now I'm depressed.
  
  
  
  
  

  
  
  

  
  
  

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  • An Ideal for Living - Sordidman 20:06:32 09/20/08 (0)
    In Reply to: RE: Wow. posted by Squonk on September 20, 2008 at 10:57:26

    A wonderful book.....
    
    cheers Squonk.....
    
    
    

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    If you think you're going to faint, go out in the hallway

    
    
    

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