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In Reply to: RE: The output is a 4-wire connection or you can use a 1/4" stereo headphone plug posted by Ralph on December 16, 2024 at 11:18:40
4 pin out is usually called balanced output and on Manely's web site they say its balanced:
Outputs (transformer coupled):
1 pair RCA- Unbalanced (Preamp Output)
1 x TRS ¼" JACK - Unbalanced
1 x 4 PIN XLR- Balanced
The link below goes into some nuance. And also just from a practical standpoint that amp at that price should have balanced ins. Especially if they are targeting studios.
Cut to razor sounding violins
Follow Ups:
They mention an XLR connector on the back and there is one spot where the word 'balanced' does occur; technically this is correct since neither side of the XLR outputs is at ground. But I suspect that's more of a copy/editing issue since what they really have there is the 4-wire connection.
If you've not heard the 4 wire hookup, its worthwhile. In a 3-wire connection, there is out of phase information that is cancelled in the ground for either channel, which is common. In a 4-wire setup this doesn't happen so you hear more stuff!
Also this headphone amp isn't targeted at studios.
Agree about 4 pin and sounding better but its a miss to not allow a balanced input for the same reason they give a balanced output.
Here are some papers. The first one explains the benefit of balanced sources but the 2nd explains why single ended outputs are superior.
My 2 cents is that the first one is correct but not the 2nd.
Anyhow at that price balanced in is a miss imho. Are you saying that balanced in is not a benefit?
Cut to razor sounding violins
My company, Atma-Sphere, has been producing balanced preamps for home use longer than anyone else in the world. We patented a direct-coupled output that is one of the few ways AES48 can be supported. So I understand the benefits of balanced operation!
WRT to Manley's headphone amp, I don't think its aimed at the pro or semi-pro market. But it could be used as a balanced preamp, although you'd need an adapter to break out the left and right channels.
Sorry I didn't see that. Was working on the phone.
Al Sekela used to rave about your amps but sadly I missed them when I finally got around to hearing his system.
So great to be talking to a manufacturer. Can you guys make this balanced stuff simple? You all are all over the map! Should be straight forward. But as far as I can tell there is balanced connections between components, balanced circuits, and balanced headphone outs. Too busy listening to music to find different words??
You are saying that balanced outs from a headphone amp is best (correct me if I got that wrong), and one of my headphone amps manual says "The TRS out is provided for TRS terminated headphones, but it is recommended to use the amp in fully balanced mode with balanced terminated headphones".
But Paul from PS audio says that its not important to have the headphone be balanced but it is important to have the source be balanced. And Pass labs makes a great headphone amp that doesn't even have a balanced out. And Benchmark has a white paper about how headphones are balanced by nature and you don't need balanced outs, but then puts a balanced connector on their amps.
And now you are saying that the Manley amp with only rca ins could be used as a balanced pre. That is sooo confusing because I thought balanced needed 3 conductors and single ended just has two. But you do mention a box right? Is that some kind of phase splitter or something?
Anyhow I am even more confused after reading your site. You argue for balanced connections between gear and conclude it sounds better than single ended but somehow its not a miss that the Manley doesn't have balanced ins?
Lawyers are kind of jealous...
Cut to razor sounding violins
I don't know if there's any way to get manufacturers to simplify the balanced line message. It does not help when competent manufacturers like Manley use the word when talking about headphone connections!
I use the phrase '4 wire connection'; that way you get that two wires are for one channel and 2 are for the other.
A preamp or amplifier can be internally single-ended but have balanced inputs and outputs. Ampex made tube tape electronics in their pro line back in the 1950s that were exactly that. FWIW the headphone output was 4 wires since their electronics like the 351 tape electronics were mono. So the headphone output was mono too.
If Pass Labs makes headphone amps that don't have a 4 wire connection, they are missing a bet. The difference is instantly audible.
Off topic, just wondering...
But if one type provides better electrical contact than the other type, are the differences basically negligible ?
-some signals cancel in the common connection used with 3 wires. So you hear more information when using 4. Its not subtle- you hear it right away.
Not sure if it's sonically superior in any way to amps with 4 wire outs, but my headphone amp was made to handle headphones with dual 3 pin XLR cables. Two larger 3 pin XLR jacks provide a bit more surface area for electrical contacts than a single smaller 4 pin XLR jack does, I guess. Not sure if it matters much, sonically...So I have 2 pairs of headphones re-cabled with dual 3 pin XLR connectors.
20 years or so ago, Headroom made dual mono headphone amps with 3 pin XLR ins and outs. My amp was made to handle headphones suited to that kind of amp. The dual 3 pin XLR arrangement fell out of favor, but I believe that John Atkinson of Stereophile still uses his Headroom dual mono, dual 3 pin XLR, balanced headphone amp - the flagship amp from Headroom before that company folded.
My amp sounds great, that's all I know. A bonus of having these L/R outs is that I can also use the headphone amp as a stereo preamp.
Edits: 01/02/25 01/02/25 01/02/25 01/02/25 01/03/25 01/03/25
Its likely that its only 4 wires. To avoid signal cancellation, the sleeve connection would simply not be connected to anything.
I never looked inside the amp but you'd be the one who'd know...
Well Manley is not alone. If a manufacturer has an xlr or 4.4mm or 2.5mm jack on their headphone amp, they all say balanced . Here are some examples:
https://www.crutchfield.com/p_956UAHPAMP/Naim-Uniti-Atom-Headphone-Edition.html?tp=60845
https://www.crutchfield.com/p_246ZENCAN/iFi-ZEN-CAN-Standard-Edition.html
https://www.crutchfield.com/p_958MHA200/McIntosh-MHA200.html
And Pass is in good company not offering a 4 pin output:
https://www.musicdirect.com/headphone-amp/music-hall-ph25-2-headphone-amplifier/
https://headphones.com/products/feliks-audio-echo-mk-ii
https://headphones.com/products/leeloo-desktop-tube-headphone-amplifier
And one would think the pro market would be using a 4 pin output for headphones. I own 5 different pro audio products that have headphone outs and none of them have a 4 pin output:
Hafler HA-75- 2 headphone outs all 3 pin
Tascam da-3000
Focusrite Am2
ESI planet 22x
Behringer battery amp
And even the pricey amps or dacs amps like Phonitor and Cranesong and lynx or the well known ones like Rupert Neve or little labs and Klang, none offer 4 pin. Only one I know of is Benchmark. Are the pros missing the boat?
And headphone makers. Lots of one cable cans out there that can't be run 4 pin without surgery. Why oh why do they do that if 4 pin is better?
Cut to razor sounding violins
Usually in pro audio the concern is being able to hear the mix while a musician is playing. So the concern for the best sound of the 'phones isn't as important- getting the recording right is. Once the tracks are all there then you mix it. The 4 wire connection would likely help for that but engineers are just as likely to use speakers as well.
My Schiit Jotunheim 2 has a 4 pin output that I use with my HiFiMan HE6se V2 headphones. I use "balanced" cables to connect my Schiit Bifrost 2/64 DAC to the Jotunheim 2. Schiit calls the Jotunheim 2 and Bifrost 2/64 inputs/outputs balanced. Are they? Dunno, but I like the combination.
Regards,
Steve
I had the Vali2 and the Eitr. Often almost buy Schiit products. Hifiman too. Was looking at that same headphone. How do you like it?
Cut to razor sounding violins
I love the HiFiMan HE6se V2 headphones. I got an open box set for $609 2 years ago. Now you can get a refurbished pair for $369.
I'm a long time Magnepan listener and when I lost my listening room temporarily I looked for planar headphones to fill in. I like the tonal balance of the HE6se, and they have great bass and dynamics. They are very comfortable to wear but they take a little extra power for listening levels I like. As a reference, I tried driving them with my Samsung phone and couldn't quite get to the level I wanted. The Schiitt Magni+ worked fine to drive them, but I went to the Jotunheim 2 for the extras it offers.
I keep meaning to post my impressions of my headphone system but haven't quite put finger to keyboard yet...
Regards,
Steve
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