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I have owned the Grado 60s and most recently the 325is. I had to give Grados another try and I am frustrated. I found the mid-range of the 325is fantastic. It is detailed, fast, forward and tonally correct. Instruments and vocals within the mid-range sound as they should.
I experienced three problem areas which I just could not overcome. First was the lower treble brightness or to my ears, shrillness. It appears to be the result of the lower treble spike in the 2kHz spike. I could not tame it by taping the bowls. Second was that they were just too uncomfortable. They were heavy on my head with no padding on the headband and sat loosely on my ears. I am used to the comfort of the velour over-ear pads and padded headband of the Senn 650s and found the Grados ridiculously uncomfortably in comparison. Third, and to a lesser extent, was that the bass is not very extended. I most likely would have been very satisfied with the 325is if they were not overly bright and comfortable, but since they were not, the lack of low bass was just another annoyance.
So while I was enthralled by how the Grado 325is do the mid-range, I could not get around the lower treble brightness, the discomfort, and the lack of low bass. Since all Grado headphones use the same or similar headbands and ear pad material, I am done with them.
For those of you who were similarly enthralled by the Grado mid-range, what have you been listening with that get you as close to that mid-range sound without the bright treble and discomfort? I hope I am not banging my head against the wall, but I am still hopeful, because there are so many manufacturers and so many experienced headphone listeners here.
I will add that at this point I am willing to spend what it takes. Thanks to all experienced listeners who are willing to take the time to help me.
Follow Ups:
I recommend you keep the Grado. They are excellent headphones.
I do not own the RS325is but I have the venerable Grado HP-1000 (HP-2), GS1000 and PS1000: they are by a wide margin the hardest headphones for me to work with. There are many things to love about them: large soundstage; generous bass--OK, midbass--and a seductive, liquid mid-range. Grado weaknesseses are unfortunately not subtle: a harsh and piercing treble that makes female voices very un-enjoyable. Shrieking banshees came to mind several times. Overall, the Grados have a U-shape sound that is exaggerated in the upper register and mid bass. You can tame the harshness/sibilance of the Grados with high-quality head amp but that is not enough. You have to pick the right amp.
Amplifier—Most solid-state (SS) headamp I tried with of the Grados failed, and failed miserably they did. The Schiit Mjolnir ($750) and Burson HA-160D ($1000) produce so much treble energy that they were practically unlistenable. Even the clean, smooth sounding and usually dependable Vioelectric V200 ($900; Germany) was unable to tame the Grado treble sufficiently. For SS amps, I had to go upward of $1000 to find amplifiers that are compatible with the Grados. The Bryston BHA-1 ($1400; Canada) was sufficiently clean in the high frequencies to produce a smooth sound free of screeching banshees, though the mid-range was oddly dull probably due to the suck-out in the middle of the Grado U-shape sound. The Gilmore GX-S Mk2 was the only SS amp I found that was a great match for the Grados, producing a beautiful sound across the entire audible range (but at a price, $2,500 when I bought it and now $3,000).
I got very good results from the Grados with many but not all tube/hybrid headamps. Both the RWA Corvina (%1500)/Isabellina ($2500) and the the Cavalli Liquid Fire ($3000) worked well with the Grados but some harshness/edginess still marred the otherwise musical sound.
The two excellent sound I achieved with the PS1000/GS1000/HP1000 was with the Woo WA5-LE for tube amp and the GS-X Mk2 for SS amp, with this latter just edging out the former surprisingly with better articulation extension and smoothness. But unless you have a large stable of expensive headphones, I see little logic in spending $1,500-$3,000 on amps to drive $300 headphones.
The shocker of this search--not really when you think about what many tube amps do—was the unassuming little tube headamp from Mapletree Audio, the Mad Ear + HD ($750): nice punchy bass, highly musical midrange with good center focus and a smooth treble range from which all banshees were banished. The PS1000 lost a bit of its soundstage and articulation but the overall sound was eminently musical.
Comfort--I cannot help you much here. The RS325is use the L cushons, I believe. They are the least comfortable of all Grado cushions. You may want to try the flat S-cushions ($10) that may help the comfort though not the sliding. The very large G-cushions ($45) will help both the comfort and the sliding but I am not sure what they will do to the sound. TTVJ sells the original flat cushions ($30) for the HP1000 that you may try also. They may improve both the comfort and sound a little.
As an alternative, you may consider buying the Grado GS1000. They sound similar to but much better than the RS325 and almost as good as the flagship PS1000 but they are tons lighter and much more comfortable to wear than either with the large G-cushions and substantial headband padding.
In a nutshell, it is possible to extract out highly musical sound from the Grado if you match them with the right headamp, mostly tubes, such as the affordable Mad Ear + HD. By plaing with the cushions, you should be able to find ones to improve the wearing comfort. Or go for the GS1000. I love my Grados and will not part with them.
I spent a few years experimenting with my 325I phones. No question the bass and mids are awesome.But like you, I couldn't tolerate the harshness.
FINALLY, I found a solution.
1: can't use solid state amplification,must use valve amps. I also tried the mixed SS and tube integrateds but still just doesn't work to quell the harshness.
2: most tube headphone amps however cannot provide adequate current at 30 ohms. I burnt out two chinese all tube headphone amps driving the grados. the typical inexpensive ( <$250) headphone integrated amp has output impedance around 200 ohms.
3: the solution I ended up with is to use a high end tube preamp PLUS a musical fidelity x10-v3 tube buffer between preamp and phones. The Grounded Grid tube preamp is lightning fast, incredible bandwith, and also very musical and sweet sounding. But it could not provide the current to drive the phones without the buffer.
Now I can hardly take the phones off my head- it's that good!
Edits: 04/29/13
... is said to be a mellow-sounding unit well suited to driving (surprise, surprise!) Grado headphones.
... which is why I've always owned a pair. For me, every different headphone I've tried has a characteristic "sonic signature" that seems to benefit certain types of music or recordings. For me: AKG K701 for jazz. Grado for Rock. Sennheiser 600 for classical. Don't expect any one headphone to do everything well. It's the same as with loudspeakers - own a few different pairs, switch them out from time to time, be happy.
Edits: 03/31/13
I had an old pair of SR325's (black aluminum) that had a great sound without any treble harshness. I sold them to try a Stax SR2050II system. I still have the Stax, but lately have mostly been listening with Shure SE215 IEM's. I really like the sound of the SE215, once a good seal is accomplished using the foam tips.
There are any number of headphones that do not have the peak in the highs that the Grado 60 and 325 have. Headphone FR measurements in the highs are notoriously hard to interpret in the real world, but that peak is overwhelming. Maybe you should try some headphones which don't have that big peak.
-----
"A fool and his money are soon parted." --- Thomas Tusser
Senn HD800s with Bottlehead Crack amp. Heaven. The 800s are *very* heavy, but are also the most comfortable cans I've ever used, and I can have them on for hours. Absurdly expensive, and could probably be sold $100-200 cheaper if they didn't include overdone fancy packaging. Closest thing to 1970's era e-stats I've heard. Bass, which goes *very* deep (*and* clean and fast) is much less "headphone-like" than the Grados, so they never sound like little pistons pounding on your eardrums. Add a Corda Crossfeed circuit to your headphone amp of choice, and you can have something pretty special.
WW
New Orthophonic High Fidelity
Tired, so tired.
"If people don't want to come, nothing will stop them" - Sol Hurok
but arguably, not high up the Grado food chain to earn the right to comment
When the RS80 is your personal high-water mark, any comparison of Grado to as a Senn HD600 seems a bit silly.
Until I can afford to try something like an RS1i, I'll not pass judgement on Grado.
I never liked the "grat-o" sound. I tried to like the 325i but ultimately didn't. I still have the HF2 and find it very listenable and a lot of fun. I believe the PS500 is very close to limited edition and now OOP HF2.
The affordable peak of midrange performance can was the AKG K501 and sadly it is OOP as well but the AKG550 I believe is the replacement. I have not heard it. I think Headroom Headphones will allow an audition period if you want to try them.
I've owned 325is for about three years. I understand your problems. Yes, there is that high mid-range spike. It doesn't bother me.
I use the G-Cushions which are circumaural and are much more comfortable. They do change the sound a bit but I like the comfort. Basically, I don't like on ear cans. You can try washing the pads with warm soapy water and that can help with the scratchiness.
I got mine woodied which made them lighter. You could upgrade (always the upgrade!) to RS-2i or 1i and get the woodys stock. I don't know if they have the dreaded spike or not, I've not heard them. There are after market head bands. A query over at head-fi.com should get you some answers.
The PS-500s are less bright on top but have more mid-bass. I owned those but thought they had too much mid-bass. The only mid-fi dynamic headphone line that I know of that has real (and reasonable) sub-bass is the Denon D2000/5000/7000 which were recently discontinued. People are still wondering why Denon did that. They can still be found. I would call them semi-closed which makes for a smaller soundstage. I owned the D7000 but found the mid-range to be somewhat sucked out but they did have tremendous sub-bass.
The BeyerDynamic line (I have the DT880 600 ohn) are less bright in that 2K range with similar bass and a decent mid-range. The 990 600 ohm is more open and has some sub-bass but I found it to interfere with the mid-bass, generally making too much bass in general. The 770 is closed and I have not heard it. I also have the DT660 which is closed, very isolating, bright but not spiky (I think), even more efficient than the Grados, does not have a mid-bass hump which most mid-fi cans have but does have some sub-bass (think orchestral bass drum).
I'm not familar with your Sugden. Tubes can help a little bit, I have the WooAudio WA6, but I doubt if it would be a good solution in your case.
I hope I've helped. Any more questions?
"If people don't want to come, nothing will stop them" - Sol Hurok
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