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Hi all:
I've always owned a pair of headphones but only sporadically used them to listen to loud music late at night. My current pair is an AT ATH-AD700. But I'm having a problem that I hope I can solve with headphones.
Recently we've 'down-sized' from a house to an apartment with lots of neighbors, and even though I thought I did my due diligence about sound-proofing, looks like I was wrong.
I'm getting complaints from neighbors, especially below, while watching movies. I have Dynaudio left, right, and centers (no surrounds) and a Velodyne sub. L, R, and sub are set on rubber pads, and I am listening at what I thought were very moderate levels. I suppose I could turn off the sub but hey, when does it end?
I'm using at modest HT receiver, a Denon 2308CI to drive these.
So I was wondering if I should get a headphone amp and two sets of headphones, which we could use to watch movies. Another advantage I can see would be that my wife and I could control the volume independently since I tend to like things a bit louder than her.
Any recs on a middle of the road setup? By which I mean a few hundred bucks for an amp and a couple of pair of headphones (or should I just get a second AT AD700)
Follow Ups:
It's not a bad idea in some ways, but I'd probably be a little wary of incurring hearing damage over the long term. I fall asleep pretty easily while watching TV, and those headphones could end up staying on my ears for hours at a time. It is recommended that headphone listeners take a 15 minute break from listening once an hour in order to avoid hearing damage. The close proximity of the drivers to your ears increases the chance that hearing damage will occur, especially if the volume levels are close to that which sounds "live". So keep the volume level down as low as possible and remember to take breaks from listening fairly often. Don't fall asleep with the headphones on!
"He was one of those men who live in poverty so that their lines of questioning may continue." - John Steinbeck
Edits: 04/28/12
Thanks for this. I actually hardly ever watch TV, we just watch blu-ray movies. Regular TV, when we do watch, is not a problem. We can keep the volume down.
The problem is movies with LFE and sub-woofer.
So, if we fell asleep with cans on, it wouldn't be a huge problem as the movie would shut off.
But after a couple of nights with my headphone setup, I am very, happily, impressed. My wife agrees, and she always states she is not an audiophile. But what we both notice, is that the dialog is AMAZINGLY more clear with the phone set-up than it was with speakers. I know with speakers we were often pushing the volume in order to understand the dialog. Now, while it is not possible to measure, we THINK that possibly we are listening at lower volume levels than before.
And this is with relatively inexpensive electronics.
It sounds as if you are careful about keeping the volume levels reasonably low when using headphones with TV. Even so, if the length of the movie is much longer than average (90 minutes or so) I would take an "intermission" break and pull the headphones off for a while before returning to the show...
"He was one of those men who live in poverty so that their lines of questioning may continue." - John Steinbeck
I haven't experienced it myself, but I have read that for some reason Magnepans are better at not transmitting sounds through walls and floors than other types of speakers.
I don't know if that is true, but if it is, they might be interesting to try.
You could also try putting your sub on an isolation base. I think that Auralex makes some specifically designed for subwoofers.
Good luck, I hope you're able to solve this.
Aaron.
Nulls at the sides, tops, and bottoms of dipole planar speakers reduce the chances that low frequency energy will be transmitted through walls, ceilings, and floors. The downside is that most Maggies and other dipole speakers need to be placed fairly far away from wall boundaries in order to sound their best, which is not good news if you live in a small apartment...
"He was one of those men who live in poverty so that their lines of questioning may continue." - John Steinbeck
Edits: 04/28/12 04/28/12
It's a good idea to get rid of it and banish the thought of having true lows in an apartment building.
I don't know what more to say? Perhaps you can get your speakers to be more near field. Going over to Left-Right only may also help -- I think that is called phantom center mode, but not sure. At that point, all you can do is turn down the volume. You will not enjoy headphone listening, so just get some fuzzy wall coverings or rugs and listen at low volumes.
Thanks all for your assistance.
Pbarach, I have just come from a house, I have a house still in upstate NY where I moved most of my audiophile gear, turntables, vinyl, CDs, etc. I have an apt a block from Lincoln Center and a few blocks from Carnegie Hall, so I am trying to listen to more live music as we approach retirement. I'd love to own a townhouse in Manhattan like Mike Bloomberg but unfortunately I don't have a spare $20 million lying around :-(
I will be working the neighbor angle over the next few weeks to see what I can get away with. Being is how this is Manhattan, it can be rather tough. I was encouraged today when I met a new neighbor from down the hall, and when I mentioned the trouble I was having with the downstairs apt, she mentioned that someone on that floor was 'crazy', and was always calling security for everything.
I have lived most of my life in NYC apts, but I have never had this problem before. Of course, I never had a sub-woofer either :-)
Great idea on the SPL meter, I just grabbed one off ebay.
After looking around, it seems all the audiophile headphone amps have only one output. But there are many that cater to the pro music business that have four outputs as standard.
So today I went to the local Sam Ash and bought a Samson S-amp, one line in, four out. And some AKG cans for $100 (for my wife). I tested it on the 'charge' scene from 'War Horse' which is what brought my neighbor up last night. It sounds pretty good, in fact as Chuck Y suggests, the dialog is more clear than it was thru speakers.
Thanks for the help, everyone!
I wouldn't hesitate to install headphones/headphone amps on your TV system. I don't have neighbor problems but I still find headphones highly preferable. Most sound problems IMHO with TV comes from clarity of speech and you minimize this issue by using headphones. The volume issue disparity between you and your partner is another - two sets of phones/two amps, and with open phones you can still have conversations.
The only problems with phones is that you really do hear 'everything' that passes thru the TV tuner, good bad and indifferent.
FWIW I use Senn 598's and a Fournier tube head amp on my TV and Senn 650's and a Woo headphone amp on my main system. Both are good matches and that little Fournier is a sonically outstanding inexpensive unit.
Please tell me about the Sennheiser HD 598. The measure quite well at Head Room. They appear to be somewhat warmer than my Senn HD 280 Pro, which are very fine. I got them in part based on Tom Danley's recommendation. But I have been looking for a pair of open backed headphones, the better to hear the toddler granddaughter and the telephone. The Senn 598 seems to measure about as well as anything and the owners' comments seem very favorable. Besides, they look so beautiful it's hard to resist.
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"A fool and his money are soon parted." --- Thomas Tusser
An alternative might be the HD 600 (or 580) - sometimes these come on sale. And the latter can occasionally be found at dealers. Depends what you like but the 580/600 sounds better balanced to me than the 590/650 which seems to be tipped up in the treble a little.But I've seen the 600 sell for $299 in the past so maybe wait for a sale. The 580/600 etc line are very comfortable. I've had my HD 600s for over 10 years and they're just as good as the day I bought them in terms of not falling apart - still tight and the velvety ear pads are still perfect. My old Leather headphones from Sony - the leather all frayed and the plastic joints became loose and eventually broke.
But the 598 sure looks good. Most headphones I have heard in the $250 and up range have all sounded quite good - from Audio Technica, Sony, AKG, Grado, Senn, Beyer etc. Big thing is comfort obviously. No matter how well it sounds or measures if it isn't comfy you won't use it. And paying a bit more for build quality might be worth a $100 or so as well.
I received the Sennheiser HD 598 headphones in the middle of May. I like them a lot. The sound is smooth and spacious. They are very comfortable. As Chuck Y said, they are very easy to live with. The only ergonomic problem is that the cable has a 1/4" inch jack, so that it requires the included adapter to fit into my laptop. I have found the headphone outputs of laptops to be somewhat fragile. But I acquired a short 90 degree 1/8" jack to 1/4" female cable so that the headphone out on the laptop is subject to less strain.The build quality seems very good, although I doubt if they are quite as tough as my older Senn HD 280Pro phones. The HD 280Pro is not as open, specious and detailed as HD 598, but they are still quite listenable and, being closed phones, the sound isolation is very good, when that is desirable. They are very clear on voices, though not more so than the newer phones.
The HD 600 is a much higher impedance phone, and so probably would not work as well as well from my laptop. The HD 598 measurements indicate a slightly more even response, but from what I understand of headphone measurements, the HD 600 measures very well, as do the HD 650 and a number of other phones that everybody seems to like.
I sent away for a HeadRoom Total Bithead headphone amp so the higher impedances of the more costly Senns would not be a factor. They say it is capable of driving any headphone except the AKG 1000 and electrostatic headphones. I have attached it to the cover of my laptop. I am not sure that it sounds any different than the soundcard in the laptop, but it does have their switchable crossfeed circuit, which has a subtle effect and makes the image a bit more spacious. It is certainly easier to use its volume control than to change volume on the computer.
Edit 20/06/2012
I have done more testing and the Total Bithead sounds smoother, more spacious, and has more bass and higher highs than I get from the soundcard on my laptop.
I played a few things on YouTube through my main system by connecting the headphone outputs on my laptop and the Total Bithead fed by the USB port, via a converter from a 1/8" headphone jack to female RCA sockets connected to a long interconnect to a spare tape input (input impedance 100 kilohms) on my preamp. The difference in highs and overall detail was evident.
I also compared a couple of CDs played on my laptop using the HD 598 headphones connected to the headphone jacks of the laptop and the Total Bithead. Similar result, definitely more highs and more low end, and a more open, spacious sound.
-----
"A fool and his money are soon parted." --- Thomas Tusser
Edits: 06/10/12 06/20/12
I don't have much to compare them to now except my 650's. They strike me as being not as extended in either direction as the 650's. For example in my Woo I have to be very careful with tube selection or the 650's get a little sharp in the highs and the bass gets a bit boomy, a bit disconcerting I must admit. With the 598's there is no issue what so ever and they do not get in the way of the music at all. The 650's work well with my Fournier and I don't have the issues above. Different design and tubes. Some might think the 650's are move revealing, some might think they are too revealing but they are never sterile, nor are the 598's which are really easy to live with headphones.
If I have a nit to pick with the 598's it is that they are not built as well, for my head at least. The 598's headband is different. It is a bit broader than the 650's which fits my head perfectly - the pressure from the 650's ear cups is well distributed over the ear. Snug but even. The 598's not so much and the cup pressure is not even on my ears and can be fatuging (not the sound). If you have a medium to small head you might not like the fit I think.
If you have any specific questions I'll try to answer.
Chuck
Thanks Chuck. Your comments were very succinct and tell me what I wanted to know.
Some around here think I have a very big head. But if I get the HD 598, I will have to see for myself how they fit.
I don't like boomy bass, especially in headphones, and I don't like tipped up highs, so your description of the balance seems very good to me, as does easy to live with.
"With the 598's there is no issue what so ever and they do not get in the way of the music at all."
That's what I want!
I've read what the staff at Head Room think, and also some customer reviews there and at Amazon. Most seem to like them a lot.
I would rather have a 1/8 inch headphone connector than the 1/4 inch one supplied as I listen a lot on my computer.
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"A fool and his money are soon parted." --- Thomas Tusser
Which Woo, please?
"If people don't want to come, nothing will stop them" - Sol Hurok
.
Thanks. I've been considering the WA6 for my two Grados. What's your opinion on the WA3?
"If people don't want to come, nothing will stop them" - Sol Hurok
It is a well built 'tube' headphone amp - it sure has a typical tube tone. A bit full in the bass I think, but that will depend on tubes. It is, compared to a SS headphone amp I have, a sonic blessing. The only problem I had with the Woo3 was getting tubes that were quiet. The tubes that came with it were not so. The upgrade of the tubes to tubes recommended by Woo, at least the power tube, was essential. I tried to save a buck by trying to buy it else where. I shouldn't have wasted my time. I succeeded but with shipping and everything (excessive) I didn't save a nickle. Replacing the small tubes was a different matter. I have lots of NOS and current production tubes that I've never had a noise problem with. Not so with the Woo. Probably only meant that I needed to buy a higher grade of tube, but I did get some JJ 6922's to sound dead quiet and sonically rich. Perhaps that particular tube adds to the fullness of the bass I was hearing and warmth in mids and highs. That would be consistent with my use of it in other stuff.
In any event the Woo is a high quality product and I do not regret its purchase. I don't know how essential headphone listening is for you but if looks is not important, don't overlook that little Fournier amp. Its powered by 2 6922's (JJ's) and SS output replacing the tube of the Woo. It has the tubes sound with out emphasis (bloom) that you can get from tubes. If I didn't have the Woo it would be in my main system with my 650's and I wouldn't look back! :-)
Thanks for the detailed reply.I admit that I can definitely be influenced by audio eye candy. I saw the WA6 at a meet recently and was mesmerized by the Sophia 274B mesh plate rectifier tube. I currently use the Peachtree Audio Nova for my headphone listening. Headphone listening is becoming my go-to mode.
Eye candy.
I'm so shallow.
"If people don't want to come, nothing will stop them" - Sol Hurok
Edits: 04/28/12
I have not heard the 598, but have the 595, 600 and 650 and I prefer the 600, not as bright as the 595, but much better definition and sound stage.
Andy
I thought the 598 was very nice. I've discovered, however, that I'm a Grado man and need that sparkle. Good phone, tho'.
"If people don't want to come, nothing will stop them" - Sol Hurok
Subwoofers in an apartment can be problematic. For that matter, deep bass in an apartment can be problematic, too, and your Dynaudios are spec'd to have pretty good bass.I've never used a separate headphone amp. My current headphones are the Sennheiser HD 280 Pro, closed back, which are easily driven by a computer sound card. Some people find them to tight fitting to be comfortable, but they have excellent sound isolation--if that is desired.
I looked on the HeadRoom site, and your AT AD700 looks to be quite a good product. If you like them, keep them. Your wife might prefer something else. There's no need to have the same phones. There are quite a number of excellent phones in the $100-$150 range.
I have been looking at open back phones (better to hear telephone or door bell), and the Sennheiser HD 598 looks so pretty I am very tempted. It also measures very well.
The less expensive Sennheiser HD 518 looks to be an excellent phone in the same price range as your AT AD700, and measures very well indeed. Both those appear to be very easy to drive.
I keep saying I look at phones, because the local selection is quite limited, so I look a lot on HeadRoom. That's how I got my Senn HD 280 Pro phones (also Tom Danley here likes them), and they are wonderful, easy to listen to, and very clear, but I can see some people might think they are tight, though they loosen up a bit with use. I have been looking at the Sennheiser HD 518, open back, which measures quite well.
HeadRoom also has their own line of headphone amps, and they are supposed to be pretty good.
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"A fool and his money are soon parted." --- Thomas Tusser
Edits: 04/24/12 04/24/12
How loud are you playing your setup? Get a sound meter and measure the decibels or whatever they call them now. My old Radio Shack sound meter came with instructions that suggest how loud is comfortable. My guess is that you may not realize how loud you are playing your setup. I live in an apartment house and sound from subwoofers goes right through the walls and floors and can pound away very annoyingly. If you are not playing your setup too loud then you just have grouchy neighbors. Headphones may be the only compromise. And with a good set of headphones you may find the sound is even better.
Alan
I decided to live in a house rather than a apartment-type condo so I COULD play music/movies at whatever volume I like, whenever I wanted. Too many times I have had inconsiderate neighbors who kept me awake into the wee hours, and I didn't want to inflict my schedule and music preferences on others. So I would suggest you and the neighbors see if you can agree on a reasonable time for keeping things reasonably quiet and then stick to it--use headphones during the other times of day!
I would speak to your neighbours and arrange to hear for yourself what they object to. Make changes (ie. turn down the sub) if you agree with their assessment. If they want it perfectly quiet they should be living in the country, not in an apartment...but pretend you live below you and see if your noise would bother you.
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