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In Reply to: RE: Interesting article - thanks! posted by AbeCollins on April 27, 2024 at 10:49:54
I suspect your "aside" about cloud services/architecture will be the subject of the Part 2 article Ferenc plans to write.
Follow Ups:
Hmm, maybe you weren't kidding. I look forward to it.
Edits: 04/27/24
Dear Abe,
The conclusion of my article:
if one feels a meaningful difference between streaming services, it is not because of the streaming (cloud, media management) services do something with the uploaded files (they possibly do, but it should not change what can be listening to at home, and it will be the subject of one of my next articles). But dozens of other reasons LOCALLY, mostly in the analog domain of different audio subsystems in the streamers, dacs, etc. The last few meter is the most important of the long data chain. From a strictly information technology POV there is a good chance that the 100 USD and 30k USD streamer would "sound" theoretically the same, but their noise signature, generated noises, noise isolation can be very different, and they will not sound the same of course IN an audio SYSTEM.
Most of the digital (data) communication happens in the analog domain. So the analog parts of any digital system are crucial and effected by analog problems.
Thanks for your reply Ferenc. I hope you are not annoyed with the several follow up questions. I can understand if you might prefer to address them in another conversation with Rushton for possible publication.
[Abe]: For clarity I wish to keep the network streamer and DAC as separate items even though we know of products that incorporate both in a single chassis.[Ferenc] : "But dozens of other reasons LOCALLY, mostly in the analog domain of different audio subsystems in the streamers, dacs, etc. The last few meters is the most important of the long data chain."
[Abe]: When you say "mostly in the analog domain" are you talking specifically about truly analog subsystems like the analog output section of a DAC and the analog components downstream like the preamp and amp? Anything else?
[Abe]: What do you include in these "last few meters" of the long data chain you mention above?
[Ferenc] : "From a strictly information technology POV there is a good chance that the 100 USD and 30k USD streamer would "sound" theoretically the same, but their noise signature, generated noises, noise isolation can be very different, and they will not sound the same of course IN an audio SYSTEM."
[Abe]: I can agree with the "noise" part of your comment but in the grand scheme of things does this "noise" below a certain level in the streamer even matter given the input reclocking and signal conditioning taking place in the digital domain within modern DACs before analog output?
[Ferenc] : "Most of the digital (data) communication happens in the analog domain."
[Abe]: You lost me here. Please elaborate. And we're still talking LOCALLY right?
[Ferenc] : "So the analog parts of any digital system are crucial and effected by analog problems."
[Abe]: Can you be more specific? Your reply is ambiguous to me. What analog parts of the digital system?
Thanks!
Edits: 04/30/24
Let me give you one short, combined answer.
Data is generally transferred through Ethernet cables, IT/IP infrastructure, hops, and RJ45 ports using modulation, which is an analogue process. This is why I mention analogue to understand digital. :)
Noise structure generated in a digital environment using high-speed internal (device) buses, control chips, and processing units is complex. It can affect the operation of all analogue circuits, potentially causing higher distortions in several ways. This is where the data flow can interact and affect the operation of your hifi device in your room. Your room is the most important part of this data transfer chain. It is where your gain stages, grounding, and power supply distortions can be influenced by the noises generated by digital and IT devices and communication.
Let me give you one short, combined answer.
Data is generally transferred through Ethernet cables, IT/IP infrastructure, hops, and RJ45 ports using modulation, which is an analogue process. This is why I mention analogue to understand digital. :)
Noise structure generated in a digital environment using high-speed internal (device) buses, control chips, and processing units is complex. It can affect the operation of all analogue circuits, potentially causing higher distortions in several ways. This is where the data flow can interact and affect the operation of your hifi device in your room. Your room is the most important part of this data transfer chain. It is where your gain stages, grounding, and power supply distortions can be influenced by the noises generated by digital and IT devices and communication.
Thanks Ferenc. I understand much of what you are saying but we don't have to agree completely on the impact on final sound quality.
-- The 'analog process' [toward digital] that you mention in Ethernet, IT/IP infrastructure, number of hops, RJ45 ports, etc is understood but irrelevant to final sound quality UNLESS the resulting digital bits become marginal, lost, or flipped - which does not occur unless there is something very very wrong. Some might call this a "bits are bits" mentality but how often are the bits so corrupt that your DAC loses lock or your streamer / music server crashes? It doesn't happen. They generally work or they don't.
-- I understand the complexity of the noise generated in digital environments including conducted and radiated noise. We don't have a lot of control over this as all digital devices generate some noise. The real question becomes to what extent does a user 'hear' or notice the impact to final sound quality? This area is ripe for audiophile snake oil companies and salesmen to take advantage. And they DO !!
Circling back to my original thought about streamers & DACs I will once again say that properly functioning network streamers have insignificant impact on sound quality COMPARED TO the DAC. And again, some companies use the same DIY hobby Raspberry Pi computer at the heart of their streamer in their pricey products - Bryston & Boulder are just two examples. Which circles back to my comment that $100 USD DIY Raspberry Pi streamers can be just as good as $30K USD magazine recommended and "audiophile approved" brands.
Probably it is my fault, that could not explain properly, sorry for my English.
The combined, systemwide effect of analogue modulation, digital noises do not causes signal or data loss. The packetized IP-based communication is well and robustly built against this.
These disturbances can cause higher harmonic distortion (through negative feedback) for example in any gain stage (or clock handling) of the whole system.
One always hears or listen to the whole system, not individual devices in an audio system. It means that a higher harmonic distortion in the gain stages (becasue of a digital noise of a router) of your preamp, power amp or DAC can influence how your speakers sound in your room.
The last meter is the most important, because of these elements. It is not a snake oil. The problem is that we (or the manufacturers) can not predict these influences in our system and difficult to prove it in a scientific way. But only a very few things are really predictable in high-end audio. So it should not be surprising at all.
Ferenc, your English is excellent and I enjoy our conversation!Thank you for clarifying your point that packetized digital communications do not result in signal or data loss.
I understand that digital noise can influence other parts of the system including analog stages but we do not have a lot of control here. As you said, the manufacturers cannot predict these influences in our system. I take that to mean a specific product "solution" by a manufacturer to mitigate this noise will not work in every audio system as each user's system and environment are different.
[Ferenc]: " One always hears or listen to the whole system, not individual devices in an audio system."
Very true but it is easy enough to change one component for another and listen for any differences. Only one component is changed while the rest of the system remains the same.
And here I must circle back to the insignificant influence of the network streamer COMPARED TO the DAC.
As we know in engineering as in life, it's all about trade-offs and priorities. Unless one has limitless funds $$ one should focus on the "low hanging fruit" or areas that return the "best bang for the buck". For example, I will gladly pay a couple thousand dollars on a good DAC but only a small fraction of that amount on a network streamer.
Edits: 05/01/24
According to my "system-based" view of building an exceptional audio system, if you change a component (or an important part like a power tube) sometimes not enough to consider just the changed components effect on the system sound.If the old component's operation was optimized in month or even years, a new component may need another optimization period to get the best of it.
An example:
if you change to a new DAC there is a good chance that you need to move your speakers a bit to get the best of it, or you need new stand, new cable, etc.A system balance is a delicate thing.
Just changing one component or part can trgger a chain of other changes to get the best from the new device and from our system.My 30 years of broadcast/AV/IT system integration experience taught me to have a patience and be ready for a slow optimization process.
A good, long term result takes time and patience and it is what usually we do not have enough. :)
Edits: 05/01/24 05/01/24
It is where your gain stages, grounding, and power supply distortions can be influenced by the noises generated by digital and IT devices and communication.
folks who consider power related treatments "snake oil" (dedicated lines, conditioning or aftermarket cords) don't seem to understand.
but their noise signature, generated noises, noise isolation can be very different, and they will not sound the same of course IN an audio SYSTEM.
I hear meaningful differences using the same streamer fed by different power supplies .
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