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In Reply to: RE: Night & Day posted by Zarlino on November 16, 2024 at 17:18:41
These days, I think she's more inclined to go for broke, and she occasionally goes off the rails in her in-concert performances in a way which I've never heard Yuja do. Of course "going off the rails" doesn't apply to the Schubert-Liszt Serenade you posted earlier - that exceptionally beautiful, cantabile performance is very much "on the rails" throughout (at least to my ears). How does it seem a "mess" to you?
Follow Ups:
You asked what I found objectionable in the performance; I hope my response is not too objectionable.
Playing something slower than usual, and slower than the composer intended, may make it seem more 'passionate' to a certain type of listener.
Here is a comment from a board for amateur players:
"I find that I like playing a couple of pieces more slowly than suggested, mainly among Chopin's Nocturnes, as they feel more expressive."
And here is one response:
"Isn't it supposed to be about self expression and feelings?'
Actually, no, it's supposed to be about playing what the composer wrote, an attitude on which both Richter and Michelangeli built solid careers. Rubinstien, it's true, built a career on sloppy, flashy performances, which he admitted he was ashamed of in his later years.
Khatia starts the Schubert/Liszt slow and then gets even slower. But playing a lightly textured piece like this so slowly risks great exposure, and here is where I find it a mess. The ostinato LH accompaniment is often missing notes, or one of the notes is strangely accented, as if she was having trouble controlling the piano.
And the RH double thirds are so often not together that it casts the aura of an amateur, 'expressing herself in terms of music', over the whole performance.
However, at the very end she does do a perfect impression of a Hungarian Puli - perhaps in homage to Liszt?
I find it sad that someone with the talent, skill, and great musicality shown in the Chopin performance I posted, should let her standards down for the sake of an encore awash in cheap sentimentality.
However, I do have some observations about your comments."Playing something slower than usual, and slower than the composer intended, may make it seem more 'passionate' to a certain type of listener."
Conveying passion in music certainly involves more than choosing a basic tempo. And when you say that something is played "slower than the composer intended", how do you know how slow the composer intended the music to be played? Did the ghost of Schubert somehow appear to you and sing the tempo he wanted? Consider this:
This of course is the holograph manuscript of the song by Schubert himself. The tempo marking is massig (equivalent to moderato - and sorry for the missing Umlaut), a word which is subject to a very wide variety of interpretation. Notice: there is NO metronome indication. So how are you so certain that Khatia is playing it too slow ("slower than the composer intended")? Why should we trust you as being the medium through which Schubert's intentions are known?You then quote some comments from "amateur players". How do you know they are amateurs? Is it because they don't agree with your views of the music?
To continue your comments. . .
". . . it's supposed to be about playing what the composer wrote, an attitude on which both Richter and Michelangeli built solid careers."
And yet, listen to Richter's performance of Beethoven's Sonata No. 9, Op. 14 No. 1. Talk about slow tempos, Richter plays the second movement, marked "Allegretto", as a dirge. Although it's possible that others have attempted this slow tempo, I've never heard a performance by another pianist as slow as Richter's. So is Richter "playing what the composer wrote"? Personally, I like Richter's performance, but does that mean he is following the composer and everyone else, playing faster tempos, is wrong?"Khatia starts the Schubert/Liszt slow and then gets even slower. But playing a lightly textured piece like this so slowly risks great exposure, and here is where I find it a mess. The ostinato LH accompaniment is often missing notes, or one of the notes is strangely accented, as if she was having trouble controlling the piano."
Words fail me here. Please provide exact timings where there are "missing notes" if you would be so kind. As for "strangely accented" notes, I didn't hear anything strange at all. Strange compared to what?"RH double thirds are so often not together that it casts the aura of an amateur, 'expressing herself in terms of music', over the whole performance."
I'm absolutely not sure what you're talking about here. If you're talking about passages like these:
. . . in the second and third beats of measures 62 and 66, the thirds in the right hand are NOT SUPPOSED to be together with the left had (nine notes in the right hand in the same time unit as four notes in the left hand). But maybe you're talking about something else? If you could provide more exact information, it would help.And finally, I find your description of the performance as "awash in cheap sentimentality" pretty cheap in its own right, although, certainly I would unconditionally defend your right to hold this opinion.
Edits: 11/18/24
Always happy to 'agree to disagree', though you did pose further questions.
Sorry to wait so long to reply - I needed to find the time to give your questions the attention they deserve.
"How do you know how slow the composer intended the music to be played?"
I looked at the score; it shows quarter = 68
https://musescore.com/user/22249306/scores/4907304
It is generally known, I think, that Beethoven's metronome, and/or the way he used it, make his tempo indications open to conjecture,
http://www.ams.org/notices/201309/rnoti-p1146.pdf
and, wondering if something similar might apply to Liszt's tempo indications, I consulted an expert I have known for over forty years, whose work on Liszt has been described as "unquestionably a landmark", "monumental", and "magisterial".
I gave him no background, asking only about the reliability of the tempo marking in the score linked above. Also included in my note was a link to the Khatia performance you and I have been discussing, asking if he might have any comment on it. I did _not_ say anything else, negative or positive.
After wondering why I was interested in this topic, he said I could remain confident that the metronome marking on the score is trustworthy. He noted that Schubert did not own a metronome though Liszt did, and he considers Liszt's markings on the Schubert transcriptions 'highly practical'.
He added an interesting aside on the Khatia performance, suggesting that if the 'lady who plays on the clip' were required to sing the melody using the same tempo at which she is playing, she would be 'asphyxiated'. He also thinks that all pianists should learn to sing. (I can't.)
Taking his cue, I checked out Fischer-Dieskau singing the original Schubert lied. Remarkably, the tempo is 68, as in the Liszt score.
You'll notice the accompaniment (which I think may be by Jörg Demus ), in which every chord is played cleanly, with all three notes audible and exactly together. As are the triplet figures.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5CXCvB90g08
Now in my early post, I did _not_ criticize Khatia for her choice of tempo; anyone can play anything at any tempo they want, including, for example, Gould's "Rondo Alla Turca", and accept the risk of sounding, as in this case, ridiculous (which may have been Gould's intent).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZYUi8S61eAc
In the case of a very slow tempo, the risk is that it will expose infelicities which might otherwise not have been noticed, much as slow motion films cause us to concentrate on the details.
Your second question was, "How do you know they are amateurs?"
If you look at the thread, I would think you will agree:
https://www.reddit.com/r/piano/comments/9ypx8t/playing_pieces_slower_than_indicated_bpm/
I doubt any professional would post here to ask 'everyones' opinion.'
Finally, you asked me to point out the infelicities that I suggested were exposed by taking the piece at such a slow tempo. I think it was mainly the uneven left hand chords which distracted me, and here are a few examples:
m 13 @ 0:51
m 15 @ 1:00
m 22 @ 1:26 where she somehow makes it sound like a descending arpeggio,
I also carped about the double thirds in the right hand, which occur mainly in triplet figures. They are generally played with both notes sounding together, though often with one note of the third louder than the other. Hardly even a grievous sin.
Many would not notice the chordal lacunae, or might notice and not care. When I noticed, I automatically listened for more of the same, and I'm afraid this uneven accompaniment put me off the whole performance, perhaps more than it should have.
This has been an interesting discussion, growing as it has from my one mere opinion.
ciao,
Geo
I listened via my Stax 4004 headphone system (404 "earspeakers" using Stax's SRM006t2 output driver). I also repeated the places in question (which you listed) multiple times. Previously, I'd listened via my small Dali "Oberon" speakers at a reduced volume. This time around, I was able to set the volume to a fairly hefty level.
Measure 13 (0:51): Uneven? With regard to balance? With regard to rhythm? I have no idea what you're talking about - I don't hear a problem in either of these parameters.
Measure 15 (1:00): Yes - here I notice a slight change in balance in the l.h. (I would not call it an imbalance), where the bottom note is slightly emphasized more than the "tenor" voice in the l.h. Frankly, that's the way one SHOULD voice those kinds of figures: you want the listener to hear the melody and the bass line. The stuff in the middle (i.e., the filling out of the harmony) is (usually!) what you want to subdue the most - which is exacly what Khatia does, even though this is somewhat difficult, owing to the number of notes in the middle of the texture, especially in measure 13, less so in measure 15. In addition, one would want to contrast the dynamics (and, possibly, the balance) from measures 11-14 (slight increase in tension) with those of measures 15-16, (a kind of a little "halo" which relaxes the tension). Frankly, this is another instance where I just don't see what the problem is. To me, what she's doing here clearly seems intentional for expressive purposes, as opposed to accident driven by inferior technique.
Measure 22 (1:26): A descending arpeggio? This is the measure with a dotted half note in the right hand and the eighth-note pattern continuing in the left hand, right? To me, this no more sounds like a descending arpeggio than Prokofiev's Toccata does. I just can't imagine what you're hearing.
You say that many listeners "would not notice the chordal lacunae". Well, I guess I'm one of those listeners, because IMHO the chordal lacunae just aren't there. This review of the last portion of your post has been a very frustrating exercise for me. I notice that your system is not listed here on AA - I'm loath to accuse a fellow inmate of using a system lacking in sufficient resolving power to hear the details properly. But something is obviously wrong here, when you claim that there are lacunae in the left hand patterns and I feel that I'm hearing everything I'm seeing in the score. This is a very strange phenomenon indeed, although this "down in the weeds" discussion, as you say, is indeed interesting.
Your sedulity is enviable, and your points are well-taken. This topic now seems to have been exhausted - I certainly have!
Had not realized that inmates publish lists of their equipment - yours seems to be very large and expensive, though I don't recognize a lot of the names.
I watch YouTube videos on my iMac. I know that many people think that the iMac internal speakers deliver good tone, but I find it a bit too 'mellow'.
Instead, I use the Sony earbuds that have served me well for over five years. Found a little socket on the side of the computer where I can plug them right in, and that kills the internal speakers (which I have never been able to find anyhow).
For my extensive CD collection, I use a Sony DiscMan (big Sony fan), which fortuitously also accepts the same earbuds.This is the combination which most closely resembles the sound of the Walkman I had as a youth; I absolutely feel that nostalgia is the most important consideration when listening to music (though - as Simone has taught us - even nostalgia isn't what it used to be.)
Those earbuds have an added benefit in that they seem to reduce extraneous outside noise as well as producing good tone. This is very helpful in drowning out the constant bleating of the llamas we breed on our hobby farm. Turns out we would have been better off going with alpacas, but that is another story.
Thank you for the generous comment.
And wow - I had no idea about your breeding of llamas - that's VERY interesting! The things we find out about the other inmates here!
Finally, I kind of agree with you about the importance of nostalgia in music listening, even though, as you say, "nostalgia isn't what it used to be"! ;-)
And thank you for this interesting discussion - probably more civil on your part than on mine! ;-)
Thank you for your gracious reply.
Now I have a confession to make: Only the first two sentences of my last post were true.
All the Sony stuff was a parody of the many professional musicians - performers, composers, theorists etc. - I have encountered over the past 60 years who know nothing and couldn't care less about even rudimentary audio reproduction; those who, after listening to decent audio, either don't hear the difference or consider it akin to raising llamas - something only for weirdoes.
Your response to my parody tells me that you are, at heart, very kind, and that is much appreciated. (And no, I don't raise llamas, though I am indeed a weirdo.)
My main system is in a basement room ca 24 x 12, where the speakers are about 4.5' out from the wall and I sit 15.5 feet out. After the damping and diffusion were sorted, the next greatest improvement was adding Dirac full range. Have measured the FR with Dirac on, and tweaked some bass anomalies with PEQ.
Because the 3.7i are ruthlessly revealing of whatever is on the recording, I adjust bass/treble/width etc as necessary, and sometimes just add the Quad or Harmon tilt.
Cheers!
On the question of the metronome mark, I would still counter that the score you link to is of unknown provenance. It might take some more research to determine how the quarter note = 68 crept in there. In any case, neither the original printed edition (Tobias Haslinger, Vienna, 1840) nor the current standard Urtext complete works edition (Neue Liszt Ausgabe, Series 2 Volume 21, Budapest, 1995) includes a metronome mark. For some reason, the original title page is shown on the edition you linked to, but the actual music appears to be a modern edition with identification which did not exist in Liszt's lifetime ("S. 560" - how would Haslinger have known about that?). In any case, here is the IMSLP scan of the original Haslinger edition (published in Vienna, but with some French in the indications too!):
And here is the IMSLP scan of the modern Liszt Complete [Urtext] Edition:
Even aside from original editions and Urtext editions, I was wondering if perhaps that metronome mark got introduced by one of Liszt's students, so I checked the Peters edition, edited by Liszt's student, Emil von Sauer. No metronome mark here either:
However, I suspect that it possibly WAS one of Liszt's other students who may have first published that metronome marking - because that was the way HE (the student) played it. It's an interesting question. I would also counter that the speed at which a singer needs to take the piece often does not have any relation to the speed at which a transcription or orchestration is played. And the suggestion that the singer would run out of breath at Khatia's tempo could be disputed by the simple possibility that the singer could take additional breaths! ;-)
As for the "amateur" comments, I read the first dozen or so in your link - all I can say is that they do not sound amateurish to me. What can I say?
Thank you again for providing "chapter and verse" of the places where you think that Khatia ran astray. I have to go now, but I'll return with another post to let you know what I hear in those spots.
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