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I'm reading a lot of great things about Duelund's tinned copper, oiled cotton cables, specially on high sensitivity / horn systems, which is what I have.
Has anyone here tried them? Has anyone compared the 16Ga to the 12Ga?
My system right now, following a few upgrades, / changes, is a bit too lit up / etched.
Current cable is a double run (active bi-amp) of Chinese "Odin" speaker cable, which sounds like a high end cable but might not be what my system needs anymore.
I listen to absolutely everything from jazz to techno to baroque to rock. And I'd like everything to sound good ^^
Follow Ups:
10 Oct. 20213
Audio Cables Make A Difference
Curtis Larson [at 72] Rosveta Audio / Delta Omega Services LLC
Intro: We are professional audio cable designers. Experience -
Navy 7 years RADAR- Satellite systems, USAF F-16 RADAR;
Metrology, Meteorology, Tube metrologist, College Electronic Engineering
PMEL USAF- retired... Kiber Kable cable research, Talon Audio [Farnsworth] LLC
Cable manufactures have made up many styles of cable configurations.
May we say most cable manufactures do little to no testing of their cable designs.
Few cable manufacture do more testing, but as far as we know - only one
cable manufacture uses a Network Analyzer in conjunction with a Spectrum Analyzer
to design and test cable parameters.
Modern cable testing by professional and audiophiles consist of double blind testing
simple RCL test, listening for changes and etc. They fail to HEAR any differences
or can not discern any meaningful changes or differences, and then mock us cable
manufactures - sometimes we deserve it - but not all.
The Audio Professionals have inadvertently added to the SNAKE OIL collection.
https://www.sounddesignlive.com/stop-recommending-linkwitz-riley-filters/
---
May we suggest and present two major problems with the current cable testing.
CROSS-OVER circuits
Modern Speakers
Lets start 90 years ago - 1930s an innocent circuit was developed for
separating the audio lows from the highs. This innocent circuit grew into the
mistake of modern CROSS-OVERs with their cross-over points.
Crossover circuits mangle, malign, amplitude degrade audio signals.
The frequency cross-over points are the worst of these modern audio circuits.
We realize that the cable testers connect the different cables to the same
crossover circuits and speakers.
So no matter what cables are connected to their speaker systems the cables will
be feed through the same damaging circuits, the testers will be expecting
to HEAR-SENSE some audio differences.
Too, the process of DOUBLE BLIND TESTING will be utilized. This process
requires the testers to listen - stop the audio sounds - the music - swap the cables
and then listen again - this process is far too slow and procedure to be judged by
the listeners SUBJECT hearing.
First may we suggest two changes for a more precise testing method.
First
Change out the crossover circuits and use a B.R.I.C.E. type circuits.
Balanced Reactance Isolated Electronic circuit.
Found in the book
Lady Fidelity Esoterica / Academia audio research
from ROSVETA Audio : ytbadak@gmail.com
NO MONEY all FREE no obligation just sharing our
years of research on cables crossovers and capacitors, inductors etc.
AND second by using a cable swapping system
Please do not get hung up one using a swapping circuit - introducing problems on to the audio signal - the crossover circuits are magnitudes worse.
Fast changing allows the ability to sense changes and audio differences and too far
less guessing and subjective impulses.
8 relays connect the cables in parallel: can be made simpler
one set [4 relays] in the A channel and the other cable under test in the B channel.
Use a remote switch to change from channel A to channel B, while sitting in the
listening test area.
By doing these needed changes you will come to enjoy cable testing and leaving in the
BRICE circuits you will have a new audio system CHEAP.
====================
Next problem the Speakers
No speaker reproduces all the audio frequencies in the speakers frequency range
the same. The impressed frequencies have some frequencies that are severely
lowered in amplitude.
Speakers have different sensitivities in frequency reproduction and
characteristic mechanical movements. Round speaker designs are the worst.
.
By using three speakers 6 -5- 4 inch for example will have frequency over lap
will have many more frequencies reproduced.
Curtis
CJL
Well, thanks everyone;some fellow member of a French audiophile group on Facebook sent me some short runs of Duelund DCA12GA 600Vdc (the wire that normally should be used to make power cables) which has a Polycast resin dielectric vs the oiled cotton of the "normal" Duelund cable. He had been using those on his horn speakers and liked them a lot; he just changed after switching to a full Audio Note system with silver AN cables.
According to most who tried it, using the 600Vdc cable as speaker cable results in an even darker, richer tone than with the regular Duelund cable.
Because the runs were short and because I'm bi-amping I could only try it on one channel; but I really liked what I heard. yes, it is a bit dark, very meaty, but the detail is there. There is texture and "life" in spades. My system is on the bright / upfront side (class D amps, ESS DAC source, pure silver interconnects and digital cables, and fully horn loaded) so it seems to balance things quite nicely.
So I ordered some more and will be wiring the whole system with it today. We shall see (and yes I expect a long and difficult burn in period!)
Stay tuned!
Edits: 08/12/23
Well, I have received the Duelund DCA12GA 600Vdc cable and rewired my speakers with it. Well, between amps and speakers that is.
No conditioning of any kind. Twisted pair (hand twisted, what a PITA), bare wire.
A few impressions so far:1) even brand new, there are none of the nasties one generally hears with brand new cables - I've been told they need some time to break in, but they sound good out of the box, in my system at least.
2) Compared to my previous cable (Chinese "Odin") there is less dynamics in the attacks of notes. It is slightly rounded. That is probably the only thing that is a bit less good.
3) tonal balance is fantastic. The best I've ever had with my system. Not dull, just slightly dark but not veiled!
4) Coherency is flawless. My system is actively bi-amped but now sounds like a very good passive speaker.
5) "flow" is very very good; VERY musical, music just goes through in all its glory.
6) stereo image is less wide but more coherent, more realistic. There is less of a "magnifier" effect. Ambience is extremely present, very very good sense of recorded space!
All in all, I'm very happy with the cable. Keep in mind this is the 600Vcd version, not the normal cotton dielectric version. I've been chatting with a couple of guys who seem to prefer the 600V even for speaker cable. I think I understand why. This cable just allows me to focus on the music and not on the system. And I've been listening to every possible genre, it works with absolutely everything!
Remember, this is in my system with very high sensitivity speakers. YMMV.
Edits: 08/14/23
Sounds like this has been a successful experiment/venture for you. It's been worth the effort of the hand-twisting of the cables and the return on the financial investment has been worth it for you as well.
Nice to learn that it's been a positive experience for you.
Joe
I do not own an efficient horn system.
In the SuperCables CookBook about air-spaced finevires Allen Wright (Vacuum State Electronics) wrote, that even 0,25mm (30AWG) wirewrap wire should be enough to drive efficient horn speakers.
The CookBook third edition (2009) page 76: "It's only suitable in short runs ( < = 2) meters) for efficient horn speakers teamed with lowish power amps. A natural for the avant guarde triode/horn brigade but not for Krells and Apogees".
I do also prefer thin single core interconnects 0,32mm (28AWG). I use Duelund (0,4 and 0,8mm) single core oiled cotton as hook-up wire and the very good VH Audio DIY silver interconnects in my system and (OVC tube preamp, GamuT D200 power amp and DH Labs Silver Sonic Q10 speaker cables (10AWG/13AWG)).
When using inefficient speakers, much thicker wires are needed, and then it should be better with several cores(?) or flat cables - someday maybe I'll try single foils...
I also listen to everything from jazz, techno (avant guarde) ;-)
mojul
I first read about Duelund cables on Jeff Day's website a few years ago.
I tried short runs of 12 Ga Duelunds on my 3.6 Magnepans and would agree that they tended to sound on the warm side of neutral with a slight loss of leading edge definition. Still, very clear and open and worth trying depending on what you're looking for.
in the system sounds that way, Chinese Valhalla 2 speaker cables (flat) will sound almost 180 degrees different. I rolled speaker cables on my horns, and Odin ended up sounding a bit too "hi fi" and etched, but Valhalla 2 took away all the edge, sounding almost creamy smooth, YET retaining most(all?) of detail and speed.
I did try WE cables among many others but Valhalla 2's are still in the system. IME tinned cables are involving with nice tone without last word in resolution.
Jon, which chinese Valhalla did you buy? Do you still have the link?
I bought them second-hand, but they are the same ones as these:
Thanks!
Those are really nice, but too expensive for me (I need double runs). But, as far as I can tell, the main difference vs the cheaper one I just bought (see my new post) is twice as much conductors. Since I'm using an active bi-amp configuration, with very high (105dB) sensitivity horns, the signal being split in the double run of cables... I can probably get away with half the conductors per cable.
I have both and think the 12 gauge is better. This is in relationship to my setup. YMMV
Having owned their 12AWG | Western Electric 16AWG | Belden 9497 16AWG SC's about 9 years ago, like many having read upon a few of them online or via Jeff Day's older articles on his then own blog.
And while each of them sounded extremely nice when used with tube electronics | on solid state gear I found that each came across as overly smooth | lacking dynamics and speed..., yet in the end came to much prefer the Supra Ply 3.4S tin plated version, as it actually took me awhile to fully realize its sound, at first I felt as if while it offered a very very refined | relaxed type of presentation, which was very addictive | I initially didn't pick upon the fact if was more than capable of offering a very nice sense of scale | balance | tonal shadings | beauty of each and every note | as well as the ability to offer attack of said notes in an instant, yet it does this in a rather mature manner of which I felt was lacking, but in time came to realize every single note was merely being presented in a more organic manner itself based upon a sense of beauty I haven't heard elsewhere to date.
In someways it forced the listener to look more inside the instrumental themselves | in the end it's one of the most consistent brands I've ever come across, as I've always ( well at least since the mid 80s ) there were always ( like anything audio ) 3 schools of thoughts when it comes to cabling, the warm | neutral | bright options, in the first group I've always found the original Monster Cable | MIT | Transparent Audio | AudioQuest ( earlier stuff only ), and around 2001, I felt the then original Harmonic Technologies Truth-Link IC's | SCs | power cord ( offered this exact signature, but even cleaner | clearer to listen into ) to each offer a more refined | creamier type of presentation to offset brighter electronics, said placement of which I now see said Supra cables, yet once again where its dynamic capabilities are to my ears ever better pronounced.
Duelund Dual DCA16GA 2x16 awg, Tin-plated, Stranded Copper, Oiled Cotton Speaker Cable.
Bi-wired.
Who needs more than 16 awg when bi-wiring 106dB horns driven by a 2A3 flea-powered amp?
Sounds good to me but I don't get too excited about cables.
"Reality cannot exist because it cannot keep up with the lies on the Internet."
Im listening to the 12 gauge as I type. Fiddling with single driver speakers for the last couple months. I use pretty short (5 feet) speaker cables and I dont hear huge differences, but the Dueland seems to mate well with 300 B amps and the current single drivers (Audio Nirvana Super 8 Ferrites)..slightly more detailed slightly better instrumental color and tone.
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