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I have a pair of 211 monoblocs that are too hot in the summer. I am looking for a class D or class AB power amp in the 15 to 30 watt range for daytime listening, not critical listening.
Follow Ups:
Late to the game on this one, but I've really grown to like my Galion TS A75 a lot. Once broken in and with everything dialed in, I haven't been that anxious to put either of my tube amps back in system. Yes, and the A75 runs very cool in my experience. Don't know what price range we're talking here, but the A75 is priced reasonably IMHO. As always YMMV, but an audition period is offered.
Gentlemen, I apologize for being absent after posting this request. You have provided a lot of useable information and some entertainment as well. I thank you very much. I will take some time to go through every site you recommended and see what comes out. Vista Audio, akitika and apollonaudio are new to me.
cawson - I am not looking for more excitement. Goose-bumps that make my brain tingle is a good description. The speakers I have do not sound as good to me with 100W amps or 12 gauge cables in my room. The 16W monoblocs become too loud at the 12 o'clock position.
I've been following Bruno Putzey for years and figured that he leads the class D list if replacing the Consonance Cyber. I missed the 150W GaNfet so thanks for that. The Orchid GaN may be the best fit so far.
Rest assured that the National Register of Historic Places in the US has many regulations. A friend has a house on the Potomac just south of Mount Vernon. They have to open their house to the public twice a year and there can be nothing visible newer than the late 1700's. The US is varied about fossil fuel and climate change. I live in Oregon which spends a lot of money helping citizens to upgrade windows, insulation of all types, LED lights, heat pumps, etc. The local power company gets a lot of power from Bonneville hydropower but never expects to get more power than they got in 2000. Population has been going up about 1% a year for the last 25 years and total electrical use has gone down in that period, partly because we closed a nuclear plant. "New power" is mainly local solar and some windpower taking houses off the grid which makes that power available for some new use.
Abe Collins - I wanted to spend a few years with a really nice class A direct heated triode with a good reputation, in our down-sized retirement listening room. I thought I did pretty well by avoiding the 40 tube units similar to your Manleys by keeping it down to 6 tubes in a design that got similar rave reviews. It worked pretty well except on summer afternoons.
Our old house had an PSAudio HCA-2 driving Dynaudio 52SE standmounts with a 12 inch powered sub in a big room. That was a very nice system. I joined the Asylum while doing the research that resulted in choosing the HCA-2.
If I decide to replace the 211s then I will certainly check the Atma-Spheres and I will check out the NAD C298. Thanks for your comments.
Good thinking on your part - please ignore those who want you to burn even more fuel by extra AC to remove the unnecessary heat from your room!A few years ago, I decided to move away from tube SETs (in my case Consonance Cyber 845 monos), but not for summer heat reasons, more for less noise and lower running costs. I wanted to challenge the belief that horn speakers are best powered by SETs.
I spent well over a year buying or borrowing numerous good ss amps of all flavours to see what could match or better the SETs in sound quality. I didn't necessarily want to "mimic" the SET sound, but I did insist on equal or better excitement / goose-bump factor when listening to music.
There were some surprising results and in the end I went for the Purifi Eigentakt Class D amp used by NAD in their Master Series range. In fact I went for their M33 all-in-one, but their M23 is probably the best choice if a simple power amp is needed.
Since then, I've also bought a pair of Atma-Sphere's Class D monos of lower output and also great with my speakers
No need to limit your power to 15-30 watts - with Class D, you will probably find the best ones in the 100-300 range and they will still burn a fraction of your 211s. My own speakers are 107 dB sensitivity, so I don't need many watts, but the SOUND is what I'm looking for and an amp working in a relaxed way will offer better sound than one straining to deliver a low wattage!
The NAD M33 all-in-one or M23 power amp offer about 300 watts
The Atma-Sphere offers 100 watts via GaNFET technologyBoth are dead silent and will doubtless convince you not to reintroduce your 211 amps in winter - unless you want to cut down on your central heating bill! Happy hunting.
Edits: 09/18/24 09/18/24 09/19/24
that M23 would sound like mated with something like a Topping Pre90? Would it give my Simaudio Evolution 600i integrated a run for its money?
I'm not familiar with the Topping brand. If the output from the Topping is typical of other preamps (there's pretty much an industry standard) and provided it offers good performance, I think each amp it is used with would be happy doing its relatively simple job - to amplify the signal. So, compatibility shouldn't be a problem, but every amp will offer different sound characteristics - surprisingly much so. However, as with all things audio, best to try before you buy if you can.
Either take your Topping to a NAD dealer or ask to borrow a demo M23. I had no difficulty in borrowing several amps when I was looking to replace SET tube amps for a solid state one. I chose the NAD M33 that features the same Purifi technology found in the M23, even though some other amps were far more costly.
please ignore those who want you to burn even more fuel by extra AC
one thing I noticed when wifey and I spent a week in the UK in July was how poorly insulated the windows were everywhere we stayed. From London to St Agnes to Stratford-Upon-Avon to Newbury. Drafty and not a single energy efficient window to be found. Places like Highclere Castle should be closed given their dreadful quality and most assuredly profound energy waste.
You guys ever heard of triple pane Energy Star rated windows? Just imagine how much energy is wasted throughout the year! ;)
Places like Highclere Castle are historic buildings and "Listed".Listed building are subject to serious controls that prevent changes that may spoil the nature of the building. Even Grade 2 listing forbids (as the village house I rented 15 years ago) the installation of non-comparable windows, so the old rattly sash windows couldn't be upgraded to double glazed ones.
Grade 1 listing (such as Highclere) is stricter still where internal walls, floor, etc cannot be messed with.
All done to protect England's heritage for the benefit of our visitors from former colonies (America, etc) so they can appreciate life as it was when these houses were built!
Between WW1 and until the 1960s hundreds of these fine country houses were demolished because the upkeep was far too great, or death duties rendered the owners unable to keep them going. My own family's 15th Century seat (Agecroft Hall) was abandoned in the early 20th Century, but thankfully put up for auction in 1926 and bought by an American. He had the building dismantled, shipped across the Atlantic and rebuilt (in truncated form) on the banks of the James River in Richmond, Virginia, where it is now open to the public. Listing has now virtually eliminated the wholesale destruction of these country houses - and the export overseas would now be impossible.
Our modern buildings, such as my present flat have thick panes of double or triple glazing often with coating to cut our UV that would otherwise overheat our flats. This often means that AC is unnecessary.
In fact the biggest heat losses from traditionally-built houses is through the roof, following by through the walls, followed by through the glazing. Chimneys don't help of course either.
Edits: 09/21/24 09/21/24 09/21/24 09/21/24
I "enjoy life" for a favorite pastime free from nannies making uninformed suggestions. ;)
Ironically, all those Chi-Fi switchers (and products from companies like NAD) are manufactured where half the world's coal is consumed and contribution to greenhouse gases continues to skyrocket rather than fall like most countries including the US.
Not sure how reliable this is, but take a look here under UK and also China.
China may still be the highest consumer of coal, but it is moving towards renewables rather more enthusiastically than the US!
Billy is reducing how frequently he cheats at school, but still does so more than any other.
Thanks for the laughs. :)
Think what you like but "per capita" the US burns almost twice the fossil fuel as China and China is building far more renewably sources of energy than China. Their use of gas-guzzling transport (road, shipping and air) is a fraction that of the US, China sells 3 times as many electric cars than the US by percentageChina does burn far more fossil fuel in total, but that's because it has become so successful in manufacturing. If the US were to regain its old manufacturing success, the figures for US would worsen and for China they would improve. Stuff has to be made somewhere!
The Chinese electric car market is 38.9% of world production, whereas the US market for these cars is 9.9%.
China produces more wind and solar power than the US - 745 big units compared with 485 big units in the US.
Obviously China has lots to do, but it seems to be doing it faster than the US and the US remains the leader by far in terms of lifestyle / unnecessary fossil fuel consumption - eg the use of AC for home cooling, car and air travel.
Lots of interesting facts and figures here - like it or not!
Getting back to the subject, it makes good sense to use Class D amps unless other classes (in particular tube and Class A) are actually better in terms of sound quality. I don't believe they are after pretty exhausting home tests with the best Class D
Edits: 09/22/24
China does burn far more fossil fuel in total
This is what I'm observing.
but it seems to be doing it faster than the US
Let's look at the data instead. While the US has slightly reduced greenhouse gases since 1990, China has quadrupled theirs.
it makes good sense to use Class D amps unless other classes (in particular tube and Class A) are actually better in terms of sound quality
You're welcome to your opinion. Horns and switchers are definitely not my cup of tea. :)
Were those energy inefficient windows found primarily in older buildings? How about the more modern buildings?
is old. ;)Lest I not take the time to say we had an absolutely fabulous time driving about 1000 miles and meeting folks along the way. Ok, sometimes needing to drag your mirror in the hedges for oncoming traffic in a tiny lane is kinda weird for Americans but I finally got the deal. :)
They take great pride in the heritage of what was constructed a hundred plus years ago! Got an email just the other day about where we stayed in Newbury called Carnavon Arms . Company just turned 193!
We recently spent $35k on new Andersen Windows around the house. Still have an almost equal project for next year to replace those in our sunroom. While the existing ones are double pane Pellas, they don't compare to modern ones. The amount of energy consumed by the nominal heat of my amplifiers absolutely pales in comparison to what most folks waste with inefficiency.
Edits: 09/20/24 09/23/24
Our two story 1994 built home was considered energy efficient back then but our utility bill dropped significantly in our 2014 built single story. The savings was probably due to various factors including better insulation and windows and the fact that it is a single story.
Ours is an older 1980 build that has benefited from a number of upgrades we've done over the years. With the kitchen/family room remodeling project, we removed a massive brick fireplace that we replaced with a very efficient direct vent Heat&Glo unit that can run you out of the house! Wifey's favorite perch during cold weather is her corner of the couch just in front of it. With its remote control in hand.What we discovered, however, was bizarre. Previously, there were two intake vent screens with filters in the family room. For many years, I dutifully replaced both but learned that one was simply a boxed in opening to the crawl space below. At one time, there were two ducts that apparently were fed by a giant metal thingy inside the fireplace that was no longer connected. Boy, were we losing heat in both directions!
Edits: 09/20/24
As you mentioned the Heat&Glo puts out a lot of heat so if it's running in the family room we usually shut off the central heating.
Our Heat&Glo has a battery holder under the unit for two D size batteries. According to the manual the batteries are to be installed only when needed if the AC power goes out in order to ignite the gas fireplace. They're not meant to be installed and left there for months.
When AC goes out there's no electricity for the furnace blower and apparently our Heat&Glo needs some power to ignite it. That's where the batteries come in and we can at least get some heat in the house w/o the furnace.
We are so happy with our unit. So different than most with the sealed front glass design and cross flow exhaust that "breathes".
Same story for us as to power out contingencies. We also have a 1600 watt portable generator that I run each month to keep it happy. Not enough to run the whole house, but can power fridge, phones, radio, rechargeable lights, etc. Knock on something, but have never had to use it. :)
Fahrenheit, that is. During winter months, during a sunny day with the south-facing window drinking in sunshine and the BAT vk-500 doing its normal space heater duties, the listening room can stay furnace-off all day.55 degrees Fahrenheit year-round would be my ideal! I was born for Nova Scotia or something.
But I only tip the temp up on bitter and windy days. House can't hold heat below 10 degrees F.
Both houses I've had, did not have insulation and were century+ homes. I also do not like modern windows. I need a draft.
I've had this quirk ever since I was a kid. As a teen I would get yelled at b/c I liked to have the window next to my bed open even in dead winter.
Maybe 30 or 40 dollars a month gas heating. Even in January.
I wear finger gloves like a modern day Jacob Marley. I sleep in my arctic rated sleeping bag during the raw months. Window cracked.
[edit: liking a drafty house, I could be fancy and try to argue, an acoustically under-complaint listening room is no match for an acoustically high-complaint one. Less of a "boxy" sound lol.]
.
/ optimally proportioned triangles are our friends
Edits: 09/22/24
...if you're comfortable that's what counts.
I'm comfortable with low 60 degrees F in the house during winter but wife insists on low 70's so I go around in shorts and T-shirt.
I was quickly disabused of the notion that the bedroom window is open in January. ;) That lasted till my wife passed. Now I'm back to my old ways.
I grew up in a beachside town in NY where the polar bear club included my favorite neighbor, an old retired man who introduced me to winter + ocean dips.
Having a window cracked year-round is sanity. Jumping into the ocean off a rock pier in January? Once. Once is plenty. Those folks are way, way beyond me.
/ optimally proportioned triangles are our friends
Class D is efficient while sounding excellent.My journey was similar to yours but not in replacing SET amps. Instead I had a pair of 70-Lb Manley NeoClassic 250 monoblocks each with 10 EL34 tubes. And of course I've had many other tube and SS amps over the decades while experimenting with Class D. Class D has come a long way since my PS Audio HCA-2 from 20+ years ago.
The Manley monoblocks were beasts! They consumed a lot of power and ran hot. And you couldn't just turn them ON and enjoy music as they took a while to warm up in order to sound their best.
With Class D amps I can leave them powered ON 24/7 as they draw a minuscule amount of power while idle and they produce almost no heat. OR, I can turn ON the Class D amp from cold and start enjoying music immediately as they pretty much require no warmup. Either way they're ready to perform.
Class D not needing warmup suits my habits well as I don't always 'plan' my listening. I will sometimes sit at my listening spot unplanned to enjoy music immediately. I might listen for 20 minutes then do something else or I'll sit there for a couple hours... it depends. The point being, I cannot do this with a tube amp. It takes 20 minutes or more before the tube amp is even thinking about sounding good.
Edits: 09/19/24 09/19/24
This is why I never was tempted to go for a tube power amp. Music listening is my hobby. It has no schedule it has no rules. That is other parts of my life!
That's why I just opted for a tube preamp to have on hand. BATvk-500 gives me a bank of reliable transistors that don't mind being left on 24/7 and the preamp doesn't mind either.
But on that note! This is what I'm realizing. That power amp has a lot of expensive parts and costs a bunch to ship and repair. Is this sensible today? Are big SS amps as old as tube power amps now?
/ optimally proportioned triangles are our friends
My first Class D amp was a DIY Tripath board that left a lot to be desired. Then I bought the highly regarded (at the time) Red Wine Signature 30 amp, that to my disappointment used a similar Tripath board. It never let my Avantgardes sound their best.Then 17 years with SETs and a few other tube amps from Art Audio, Graaf, Consonance Cyber, Audio Note, etc until I re-discovered the vastly improved Class D amps.
Arguably the best right now is Purifi's Eigentakt but care needs to be taken to avoid garage-built amps, sold on Ebay that use the cheap DIY Eigentakt Eval(uation) board. Much better performance can be obtained from Eigentakt amps built by big brands such as NAD and T+A. More costly, but undoubtedly better!
Edits: 09/19/24
about 70% efficiency, and about 70 bucks.
In a couple months, it's heater time again for me. A used British integrated provides most summer tunes.
/ optimally proportioned triangles are our friends
Vista Audio Spark or its bigger brother Zest, AkitikA GT-102 which comes both as a kit or assembled.
http://www.vista-audio.com/products.htm
https://www.akitika.com/GT102.html#
air conditioning.
That's compounding the Environmental impact of unnecessary fossil fuel burning just for entertainment!The OP has the right idea - cut the heat wasted by the amp and consequently less (or no) AC needed.
You know it makes sense!
Edits: 09/18/24
to the Stone Age and not burn any fossil fuel. ;)
Nt.
Mark in NC
"The thought that life could be better is woven indelibly into our hearts and our brains" -Paul Simon
while others serve no useful purpose - unless you want to get a bumper sticker. ;)
Don't any of you people have air conditioning?
LowIQ
I was just about to post the same thing. I've had lots of tubed amps over the years, including one that has 8 X 6550s run at class A. A fair amount of heat, but man invented air conditioning so my room never got hot.
Jack
NT
Don't worry about avoiding temptation. As you grow older, it will avoid you.
- Winston Churchill
I usually run tubes in the winter and SS in the summer. Definitely stay away from Class A amps. Lots of good class D amps available, these were on my short list.
https://apollonaudio.com/apollon-audio-amplifiers/
I'm in the rebuilding stage for my main audio set up, so I've yet to decide on a nice tube Integrated but I have narrowed it down to 3 brands.
In the office my tube favorite was the Woo Audio WA22, which I will also need to replace.
Happy hunting
J.
There are many excellent sounding Class D amps available these days ranging in price from a hundred bucks to several thousand. If you want to get your feet wet with Class D, the Fosi V3 Monoblocks are popular among a some Inmates here in the Asylum. You can buy a pair for under $300 USD including the required outboard power supplies.
Or you can buy a pair of much higher quality Class D amps from a company that has been building audiophile equipment for decades. See the link below.
I've had various Class D amps over the decades from PS Audio, Wyred4Sound, Rogue Audio, Bel Canto, NuForce, and many others. My current Class D amp is the NAD C298. They've gotten better over the years.
Ralph sends the trigger message and you plug his amplifiers :)
... You've never listened to the A-S Class D amps - I have and they are mighty fine amps.PS - I wrote this and my more constructive post above without realising that Ralph had contributed to this thread!
Edits: 09/18/24
nt
Class D has gotten good enough recently that there are some out there that if you play them, you may find that you can retire the 211s for good.
I played triode amps for the last 45 years and don't miss them at all.
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