Re: All experienced audiophiles were fooled by AR at the audio shows

>The reflections in the room have lot to do with the illusion of live music.

well yeah, they can destroy it.

>Almost all home listening rooms are too small to sound like we are hearing live music in a nightclub or auditorium {we almost always hear live music in large venues}.

i don't think it is size as much as the reflectivity of the boundaries.

>That problem has nothing to do with the analog vs. digital debate

True.

> because even live music played in typical hi-fi rooms at home (few people have tried this) doesn't sound like a typical live concert!

That is true.

> There are too many early reflections and bass is very uneven in most home audio rooms.

or the room is too damped. Either way it is futile. But then if the playback room had similar acoustics to a concert hall it would be a bad playback room. they serve very different purposes and what is good for one is bad for the other.

>Of course with two-channel audio we have any room ambience in the recording coming at our ears from in front of us ... versus coming mainly from the sides and rear at a concert in a real auditorium.

That is true but it is low level information and is not as obviously directional as the acoustic information coming to us straight from the instruments. so while not perfect it can still go a long way towards creating an illusion of a large space in one's listening room. the bigger problem usually is the cues one gets from the sound of their listening room imposing itself over the ambient information on the recording. the ambient information on a recording, for it to be effective has to be at the right level which is ultimately a very low level. to get the sound of the listening room to not interfere with that, it has to be at a substantially lower level. that is hard to do in what is usually a reletively small space.

>Even more amusing is that most acoustic concerts are mono or near-mono unless you sit quite close to the performers.

No. Not even close.

> With amplified instruments (are there any other kind outside of classical music these days?)

Yes.

> the music is mixed to mono for the PA speakers.

Sometimes but so what? I don't think any of us are using concert PA systems as a reference.

>The real issues are:
-Room reflections in small rooms at home versus in an auditorium

Almost. the real issue is listening room reflections v. the *recorded* reflections of the original venue.

>-Visual cues of people playing instruments (live or on video)

Live sure, they actually corelate with the aural information. Not so with video playback.

>-Mono or near-mono heard in concerts from most seats versus the artificial "stereo soundstage" created in a recording studio

Not so sure it is "artificial." It may or may not be *accurate* to the original event from a particular position within the venue but it certainly can come quite close with the right recording techniques.

>-The ability of home speakers to play at concert levels with low distortion

It is not about playing at concert levels but about playing at the levels heard from the intended perspective of the recording. This certainly is an issue with much jazz.

>- When we solve all the above problems, then the issue of analog versus digital deserves some debate:

It always deserves debate but not in such broad terms.

>Digital is a superior low-noise low-distortion format
Analog is for old geezers who can't hear noise and distortion.

There is a fine example of such broad terms. thank you.

>Both formats are easy to attack because they so rarely meet their potential -- the real enemy is recording and mastering engineers who do not try to give us high quality sound, not the formats themselves.

I agree with this whole heartedly.

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Follow Ups Full Thread

Topic - Analog vs Digital - thetubeguy1954 06:13:27 04/06/07 (28)

The real argument is Good Illusion of live music versus Bad illusion -- analog or digital make little difference - Richard BassNut Greene 08:09:05 04/06/07 (27)

where a string quartet pretended to play music in an auditorium - Robert Hamel 16:24:24 04/06/07 (1)

live music videos can create the same "you are there" illusion for surround sound - Richard BassNut Greene 20:10:05 04/06/07 (0)

Re: The real argument is Good Illusion of live music versus Bad illusion -- analog or digital make little difference - thetubeguy1954 14:29:45 04/06/07 (23)

I have always assumed that the purported AR demonstration was apocryphal. - Norm 11:51:19 04/07/07 (1)

Heck, even Edison was able to fool (!) audiences with his "tone tests". That's nothing! nt - clarkjohnsen 12:15:17 04/07/07 (0)

All experienced audiophiles were fooled by AR at the audio shows - Richard BassNut Greene 20:30:25 04/06/07 (20)

That just isn't true. Do you believe everything you read in the papers? nt - clarkjohnsen 10:38:12 04/07/07 (3)

I was at an audio show demonstration. This is a first-hand report. (If you are the author I sure don't believe it) - Richard BassNut Greene 16:35:10 04/07/07 (2)

So now it's all about you. What about, "All experienced audiophiles were fooled"? References, please. nt - clarkjohnsen 11:05:12 04/09/07 (1)

This is a first-hand report about a crowd of audiophiles at a high-fi show (not it's not all about me) (nt) - Richard BassNut Greene 08:07:27 04/10/07 (0)

Re: All experienced audiophiles were fooled by AR at the audio shows - kerr 07:52:34 04/07/07 (8)

Are you agreeing with me? ... So there's nothing to argue about? - Richard BassNut Greene 08:35:20 04/07/07 (7)

Well, if it'll make you feel better - kerr 09:01:58 04/07/07 (6)

"I'm off to audition speakers... with a subwoofer... and a solid state amp... and equalization...and generic cables" - Richard BassNut Greene 09:47:55 04/07/07 (5)

Re: "I'm off to audition speakers... with a subwoofer... and a solid state amp... and equalization...and generic cables" - kerr 20:02:00 04/07/07 (4)

Kerr you are quite a diplomat with a good sense of humor -- ever think of running for some office? - Richard BassNut Greene 21:16:51 04/07/07 (3)

Quite a dip-WHAT??? - kerr 09:20:50 04/08/07 (2)

Dogs are not served in Greek restaurants - Richard BassNut Greene 16:32:18 04/08/07 (1)

So it's not a Dog Eat Dog world after all! - kerr 16:52:08 04/08/07 (0)

Re: All experienced audiophiles were fooled by AR at the audio shows - Dan Banquer 07:42:02 04/07/07 (2)

I was thinking of the SPL peaks of live classical music orchestras not the high average SPL at amplified rock concert - Richard BassNut Greene 08:15:38 04/07/07 (1)

Re: I was thinking of the SPL peaks of live classical music orchestras not the high average SPL at amplified rock concer - Dan Banquer 12:50:20 04/07/07 (0)

Re: All experienced audiophiles were fooled by AR at the audio shows - Analog Scott 23:14:12 04/06/07 (0)

Ahh Richard! You always see the big picture. (nt) - Pat D 21:50:49 04/06/07 (2)

Actually if you choose the right wires, the music will be so real ... - Richard BassNut Greene 08:38:38 04/07/07 (1)

Humph! - Pat D 13:28:43 04/09/07 (0)

The Difference Isn't So Much the Illusion or the Fidelity At Face Value...... - Todd Krieger 10:52:27 04/06/07 (0)

Follow Ups

Re: All experienced audiophiles were fooled by AR at the audio shows - Analog Scott 23:14:12 04/06/07 (0)

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