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Hello everyone, and Jon specifically,I have read your stuff and am confident you know WAY more about this stuff than I ever want to. I would really appreciate any science and objective opinion you could apply to the following topic.
I have just acquired two long lengths of Nordost Quattro Fil XLR (each pair is 9m long). I only wanted one (to take my best shot at multichannel), but the second came along at a price I couldn't refuse.
It looks like I might be having to part out (ie 'chop') the second one in order to sell it. I think it's a shame, long quality ICs being as rare as they are, but I'm not sure about the market for this style of cabling solution. QF's seem to be the ideal choice for long lengths of the Nordost line, having about half the capacitance/ft of the Valhalla and their other top cables. I know capacitance is only part of the equation here, but it seems to be the standout spec of the QF.
Anyway, either way, once one invests enough in interconnects, he/she must wonder about the value of upgrading the stock connectors. And once one wonders about THAT, there involves a great concern surrounding the idea of actually making the cut and optimizing the termination.
Nordost famously charges 500 bucks (or so I hear, anyway) for every termination they do on your behalf at the factory. One can go elsewhere and have a good audio shop do the job for you, but if we don't understand what is going on during a factory termination, how does one evaluate that the job would truly be done right elsewhere?
I think you can see where I'm going with this - what happens during a $500 factory termination that doesn't happen at a good audio shop? Do they have special vacuum chambers or other extreme tooling to hand, that actually genuinely results in a superior termination?
From what I can gather from reading around, there is discussion about what termination methods are best - crimping vs soldering, etc. What, in your research, yields the best terminations possible for an XLR connector to a cable like the Quattro Fil? I am considering using Vampire Xhadow XLRs to terminate, but am also looking at the Furutech FP Rhodium-plated ones. (as an aside, do you have an opinion as to which of these two apparent class-leaders is superior? It is nearly impossible for the non-electrical-engineer to assess the comparison of the two without some help. I have no idea if Rhodium-plated makes more sense than silver coated copper. I am looking for more substantial criteria here than that "it's expensive, and it sounds cool") :)
If these fabled factory terminations are in fact the beneficiaries of a superior proprietary or technological process, surely there must be talented terminators elsewhere in the world incorporating these same ideas/tooling, at a better price point? Do you have any recommendations regarding who you consider to be the top men in this field? Anyone, pleae feel free to email me directly and confidentially if you don't want to get involved in any fights. I'm just after the truth here. It seems absurd to hand over thousands of dollars worth of cable and connectors to a technician with no references, and without understanding exactly what services they are, or are not, providing! Naturally, I want the job done to the best standard possible, in line with the cable/connector choices in the first place.
Well, that was a mouthful. I hope this thread will help a lot of us break some of the mythology associated with exotic IC terminations. I don't by any means mean to suggest that Jon's is the only opinion that I am looking for, but I would definitely like to hear from him. After all the things I have read by him in the past, his opinion matters a great deal to me.
All the best and looking forward to the responses,
ccm
Follow Ups:
Sorry for the delay, I have been ill recently, and then catching up at work.
First, I am not familiar with the Nordost factory termination particulars, and would only be guessing as to what might justify a $500 termination fee, although the idea that it is such a stiff charge to discourage casual cable chopping is not at all far fetched.
I am also not aware of any particular aspect of the Nordost cables, Quattro Fil included, that would _require_ unusual tools, techniques or materials. On the other hand, some specialized tools would undoubtedly make it much easier to terminate the cables properly.
That is not to say that they do not exist, or that the factory does not have some special technique that assures that the performance of the cable is maintained to the utmost, etc., just that with a reasonable level of care and experience, someone should be able to properly terminate the cables.
Can some one competent terminate the cable adequately, without loosing any actual sonic performance? Probably, in my opinion, with the biggest difference probably being that the factory termination would likely have a lot less need for break-in or burn-in (the techniques used and/or a pre-burn-in), and that a cable that was not factory terminated might take some additonal time to settle in to it's full potential.
Would a crimp, set-screw or solder joint be best? For line level cables, my personal favorite is a good solder joint, using high grade solder and a good iron. Can a competent tech who really knows how to solder correctly terminate the Nordost QF's to full sonic performance?
They should be able to, but let me suggest something here, that would be entirely reasonable and helpful in a case like this.
Even the best tech who know's how to solder is limited by their personal experience with soldering a specific item, and any given person may not have ever teminated Nordost cables before, using high quality plugs, and a particular brand/grades of solder, etc.
If you want to get a general tech who is proficient at soldering to terminate the cables, allow them a practice run of at least two connectors, let them solder up two XLRs JUST for practice, and then, if they OR you feel the least bit like questioning the elegance of the solder joints, cut the XLR off, and re-terminate again with a new XLR, using the benefit of the 'practice' terminations done earlier. This might involve a little extra solder (Kester 63/37 w/44 rosin, Ersin 63/37, Wonder Solder, Cardas Quad Eutectic, etc.,) and an extra set of XLR plugs, but with cables this expensive, a couple of extra plugs and a little extra solder are peanuts compared to being sure you got it right.
My first concern, if I were the one terminating such a cable, would be to get the conductor free of the insulation without damage to the conductor, and based on what I have seen of the Nordost cables, this is not a trivial thing to do. The teflon insulation is very tough, and very hard to get off of the conductor, and the forces necesary to do so are easily in the realm of fracturing/damaging the conductor structure due to stress. The best way seems to be slicing the insulation off in layers, until the metal is just exposed, of course, the trick is to do this and not cut away a significant portion of the metal, unduly stress it, or otherwise compromise the conductor or insulation intergrity of what is left behind.
My biggest concern during soldering would be work hardening the conductor metal, and secondarily, damaging the dielectric due to excess heating, so I would apply the minimum amount of heat, rapidly, and if done properly, the soldering would be over very quickly, and leave a very shiny, even, yet small solder joint with a minimum of discoloration of the conductor and nearby insulation.
Finally, some attention would ned to be paid to the strain relief aspect, and here, it might be possible to "copy" the factory termination method, in terms of
Are there some super "cable terminators" out there? I am sure there are, but I can not direct you to anyone in particular, due to potential personal interest conflicts and the fact that I am not myself in the bussiness of selling my own cable making skills to anyone. Perhaps someone else will be able to recommend a seasoned solderer/cable terminator.
I did stumble across this URL and price sheet:
http://www.audiophilesystems.com/nordost/RetailRetermination2006.pdf
which seems to indicate that they do it for $100 a termination.
Perhaps this amount is not so outrageous that you will consider having it done, instead of agonizing over a non-factory termination.
I am sure that an "official" factory termination would provide for a greater re-sale value in the market.
Ultimately, it is your call. Good luck!
Jon Risch
Isn't that a job for mafia hit men?
Professional termination is also known as when you " whack somebody" in some circles. I would say professional terminators have been "whacking" audio for quite some time. It's not dead yet, but they're working on it.
d.b.
It might be if we keep getting jokes like these ;)ccm
There are many who swear by crimped terminations over soldered terminations and probably as many who prefer soldered terminations. A crimped termination, sometimes called "cold welding" requires a special crimping tool. "Professional termination" ? That could be a termination performed by someone who charges ($) for crimping a termination as opposed to someone who does not charge for terminations, by definition, an amateur. I prefer terminating with hi silver content (8%) leadfree solder. The crimped termination must be performed so that the termination is "gas tight" (So tight that gas i.e. air, etc.) cannot penetrate the crimped termination in order to prevent corrosion from forming in the crimped joint. I highly recommend that you also investigate the Eichmann terminations. The Eichmanns have a high reputation for delivering superior sonics, especially their silver terminations (top of the line) which are far more econonimical than Nordost's $500/pop.Happy Terminating !
nt
hey pkell44,Thanks for your post. This is getting warmer to the kind of answers I'm looking for, like "the crimp must be gas free" and "one needs a specialized crimp tool to get it right."
What I'd really like to know is the kind of stuff like: where does one get such a tool, etc? And exactly what must happen in order for it to be gas-free? is a sealant painted on to it after? If so, what sealant? Is it the kind of job that requires a bit of a knack? Or can any first timer nail it straight away? Also, there must be some specific chemicals used to clean the joint prior to the big squeeze? All these things are what I'm interested in.
I am reasonably confident that the world's best terminations are not made by just duffing it on. That the leading cable manufacturers have spent some time researching the optimal way to do it. For example, you say you solder, but with what brand of solder? What temp? How much do you use? Any flux? What kinds of cable do you usually work with? How much do you strip from the wire? Do you stagger the joints? Do you use heat shrink to cover the individual wires inside once soldered? What kind of heat shrink has the best dielectric? There are lots of questions involved. That's why I am asking the experts. Like I say, I didn't come this far only to stop being meticulous in the end game :)
For the record and to be fair, Nordost charges the $500 for the labor mostly, not for the parts. That's why I'm wondering about just exactly how skilled this labor must be. Of course I could solder it myself with silver solder. But is that the optimal way? And how you solder could be a world different from the way I solder. One of us will have a lesser connection.
Thanks for the post and all the best,
ccm
Not "Gas Free", but "Gas Tight" meaning that the crimp is so tightly made that that gasses and vapors, especially sulfur bearing, cannot penetrate the crimped joint. I usually solder @ about 450 deg. F. (I have a temp controlled iron). In successful soldering your iron MUST heat the work, the iron must NEVER melt the solder or you are most likely to end up with a 'cold joint', which is very bad news. It goes without saying that when soldering, the surfaces to be soldered MUST be clean. I use a kitchen-type nylon scouring pad to clean the pcb surface and the component leads to be soldered. When soldering a component to a pcb my process is as follows : Heat the iron to the proper temp, clean the tip of the iron on a damp sponge; tin the iron generously and holding the iron at about a 45 deg. angle to the pcb apply it to the surface of the pcb next to the component's lead but not touching it and after several seconds touch the end of the solder to the pcb close to the component lead; if the solder tip melts add a bit more solder to the iron's tip and move the iron into contact with the component's lead and the pcb; after several seconds move the tip of the solder against the lead ONLY; if the solder melts complete the joint by applying a bit more solder and the joint is completed; remove the iron. It sounds much more complicated than it is.For general Component soldering I prefer 0.062 (1/16") dia. solder with it's own flux in the solder. Which brings up another point : after finishing your solder and the work has cooled the flux from the solder has solidified on the pcb, etc and should be removed. To remove small amounts of flux I use a dental pick and small brass brush. For large amounts of flux I have found that the gel type waterless hand cleaner does an excellent job providing there are no water sensitive parts on the pcb. Spread a generous dollop of cleaner to the bottom of the pcb and let the pcb sit for 10 or so minutes and remove the cleaner/flux with running water and a stiff bristled tooth brush.Heat shrink tubing comes in very handy but I don't think you have any choice as to its' Dielectric Absorbtion factor. I use an instant on/instant off propane torch to shrink the tubing, but you can use any good heat source. For flammable areas I have a heat gun. However, you can find various diameters of teflon tubing, with various DA and you could apply the appropriate size teflon tubing and then shrink tubing to seal the ends. Teflon has a high resistance to heat so you can't shrink teflon tubing, when it gets hot enough it simply melts.
Happy Happying !
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