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If gauge and basic material (copper) are the same, does wire in a speaker cable need to be of the same quality on both legs of the signal to realize the benefits of the higher quality wire? I am going to rewire my outboard Xovers, and I am wondering if I can cheat a little by using something cheaper than OCC wire on the minus leg of the signal, or if I must use the high grade, expensive stuff for both legs of the signal.
Follow Ups:
The 'Minus' leg of your wiring is absolutely as important as the + leg of the wiring. The 'minus', or 'neutral' leg of the wiring is actually a ground wire, and ground is the other half of the circuit. Experiment : disconnect the 'minus' wire. what do you get ? NOTHING. Nuff said !
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I am going to be forced to use some existing RG6 coax as speaker wire for side surrounds in my HT setup because of the configuration of my house. Anyone got an idea how much and of what type of degradation to the signal will result?
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Contact Kimber Kable
they have a 4-wire that would work
for you situation, ask for Dick Diamnond.Their 4-wire is a balanced cable.
Coax tend to be a very bright cable.
I think you may have gotten the response you need, but the answer is yes. The signal is effectively a balanced signal, much like a balanced mic cable, minus the ground.The reason there's no need for a ground reference is also the reason people need to pay attention to the DC offset of their amp. No current through the speaker, and it in resting position on the spider and surround provide the "ground reference" as far as translating the signal back into sound is concerned.
BT
Hi Tom,
Since current flows in like a closed circuit in both wires (from the amp to the speaker on one wire, and then from the speaker back to the amp on the other wire), they better be the same size and type (analogous to having the same pipe diameter for fluid).
But if you want to save on speaker wires, just buy regular electrical wire, (heavier gauge is the better). Don't go for the special speaker cables. "Oxygen free" and all other related buzz is nonsense. The only thing that matters is the resistance of the cable, so the larger cross sectional area of thre wire(heavier gauge), the better.
Good luck.
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For instance, you may want to consider your notion that "they better be the same size and type (analogous to having the same pipe diameter for fluid)" as it's in conflict with your argument that all that matters is the resistance. If that's true then who cares if the legs are unequal as long as the loop resistance is unchanged?Contemplate expanding your mental model of such things as speaker wires. There's more to the system than just controlling the woofer damping. Think about the four decade bandwidth of audio (5-50K) and the modulation of E-field penetration (skin-effect) which ensues. Run an magnetic FEA of a cross slice of a speaker cable across the band. Do it again with plated wire. (You can use FEMM for free.) Think of extraneous coupling due to the current loop size in the cable. Then there's the matter that the cable is mismatched at both ends and that the source and load Z vary with frequency. And of course there's the routine net RLC, but even they can be modulated by mechanical motion due to the electro-dynamic effects of the heavy current flow. And that's just some of the electrical stuff, then there's the metallurgy and ...
Well, you get the idea. Nature's complex and while we all rely greatly upon simplifying assumptions and rules of thumb, they can turn on you if applied too liberally. The world really isn't an LTI system, it's just a crutch for our feeble brains.
So enjoy! It's fun to tweak your assumptions. Mine are sure a lot less dogmatic than they were 20 years ago...
Thanks for your reply, but I am already pretty far ahead of where you must think I am. My original question included the premise that both wires would be similar material and identical gauge. Your statement that OFC and related buzz is nonsense is just plain stupid. Your proclamation that the only thing that matters is heavier gauge and reduced resistance is equally dumb. Get a clue before you offer "advice". This looks cruel, I guess, but you really need to absorb a lot more from the postings here, and gain a lot more experience, before you are qualified to dispense your limited wisdom.
It could be that his ears or his system aren't resolving enough to hear a diff.
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Hi.Does "Plus & minus side of signal" mean the plus & minus legs of the pair of speaker cable?? You mean cable leg not "signal" leg, right?
We have plus & minus cycle of an AC signal, but we have plus & minus legs of speaker cable.
Yes. remember that electrons are negatively charged and you get electrons from the negative led. Some like the ASL products use a brass ground bus bar and these significantly slow down then'speed' of the amps.
One thing you may want to experiment with is that the proportion of the wire feeding the positive and negative can be altered to change the tonal balance. More positive wire yields a brighter sound: more negative, more bass.Have fun.
So why not just forgo the return wire altogether? Then we can accentuate the positive, eliminate the negative and won't have to mess with mister in-between. What DO they call those charge carriers in the positive wire anyway?
Hi Stu,
Your statements:1. "electrons are negatively charged and you get electrons from the negative led" - completely wrong
2. "Some like the ASL products use a brass ground bus bar and these significantly slow down then'speed' of the amps." - puzzled me completely
3. "One thing you may want to experiment with is that the proportion of the wire feeding the positive and negative can be altered to change the tonal balance. More positive wire yields a brighter sound: more negative, more bass." - wow!!! physics has changed lately.I'm just an electrical engineer and audio fan, can not find anything correct in your statements.
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are now positively charged?
As fot the cable ratios: it defies current logic, but you ought to try it. Sometimes what is not in the textbooks can be very interesting.8^)
Hi Stu,I found your original post so odd that I finally came to the conclusion that you were pulling our legs!
But you are now sounding serious so pray tell...
Are you bi-wiring?
When you say "More positive wire yields a brighter sound: more negative, more bass", what are you talking about?
To get "more positive wire" would I...
Increase it's length?
Increase it's diameter?
Buy a different sort of wire?Thanks, Rick
Well...That's interesting. I'm not too surprised that making the changes you describe in a preamp affects the signals.
The speaker on the other hand is a real puzzler. When I get some time I'd like to try that. Does the effect increase with the imbalance between the legs? I'm thinking a procedure might be:
1. Construct a cable with a substantial imbalance, perhaps 4:1. I've got some Kimber Kable I'm not currently using that would be easy to rig up.
2. Listen to it.
3. Swap hot and cold at both ends and listen again.
4. If the sound is different, grab a beer and try again.
5. If the test repeats, reverse end for end and goto step 2.
Ultimately it's a passing out ceremony, but what fun...Do you think that would reveal it? I just can't imagine any mechanism that would alter the sound of an isolated speaker by switching hots and colds since the loop impedance shouldn't change and the load is balanced (being isolated). I can hardly wait to try it.
AS a matter of fact Kimber was the cable I did my experimentation upon. The ration of positive to negative is important. A four to one is quite audible, at least on my systems.
If you look at the Kimber PBJ interconnects they are not quite balanced in the amount of cable per leg, and that got me thinking. Then on early Kimber KCTG digital cables I noticed they had two positive legs compared to two negative legs on their analog versions of the cable.....
Thanks for the info Stu,I'll give it a try soon as I can do so more or less guilt free. Behind on project (could AA have anything to do with it???) or would do it now.
In my experience interconnects have been a lot more important than speaker wires so I'm not expecting to notice a huge difference, and am prepared to be amazed if I hear any.
But, I've been amazed before. Being amazed isn't all that amazing to an audiophile!
More cross sectional area. If you use solid core hookup wire in a preamp, for example, adding another strand to the negative increases the amount of bass in the balance. If you use insulated stranded speaker cable you can cut one strand of one leg to experiment. If you don't like it, simply solder the end back up.
If you are biwiring, it gets more complex, but you can, say, work the tweeter harder at it's lower FR range by adding cable to the negative leg.
You're not going to find this in any text book, of course. I noticed this many years ago, and have been employing this tweak since. It is particularly noticeable in preamps where it is common place to have one thin wire serving as a bus bar for all the input and output grounds.Try it: it's cheap and surprisingly effective.
Stu, I messed up and my reply is now out of order above. Rick
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.....utilize the same wire for both sides to avoid any kind of spectral shifting.What makes U think that the negative side/leg is less important than the positive side/leg?
It is all one circuit and skimping on the negative side/leg will certainly have detrimental effects.
IMHO, don't do it.
I didn't really believe that the negative side was any less important, but I was just hoping that someone had the experience of cutting a corner and saving a buck. Oh well. Thanks for your answer, even though it wasn't the one I was hoping for. Of course, it makes perfect sense that, in an AC circuit, plus and minus are equally important.This was a very simple question, but look at some of the responses I got. My gosh, this group is not nearly as sophisticated as I had hoped it is. One person actually told me that, in effect, I'd be better off connecting my speakers with battery jumper cable than the OCC copper I'm considering. Another claimed I could alter frequency response by using different gauge wire on each side of the signal. Still another was confounded by my use of the term "leg" when referring to a cable. At least one person was kind enough to send me a cartoon of a speaker pumping out jams, including polarity changes as the AC wave passed. That did help somewhat to clarify what I need to do: spend the big bucks for the same wire for both plus and minus.
Q
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Watch the animation I linked to.Pay attention to the polarity on the wires as the speaker cone moved in and out.
That should answer your question.
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Thanks for the cool cartoon. Sadly, it only reinforces what I already feared to be true. I was only hoping that someone would have had some experience with using slightly inferior wire for one side of the signal and getting away with it.
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