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In Reply to: We're an obsessed little group. That's for sure. posted by Presto on April 9, 2007 at 17:43:04:
You cannot remove the mixer functions completely from your main soundcard and still use all the regular functions. Using ASIO without disabling mixer functions still threads the stream through the main volume and bass/treble sliders, unless...Unless you have your main soundcard and also a USB audio device like a HagUSB. I have learned that this is really the only way to keep the full functionality of a sound card while having a device that can bypass *ALL* the mixers and give a clean digital signal. Using ASIO with a usb s/pdif audio device will bypass all the mixers and deliver a clean digital signal.
I thought about the idea of installing two soundcards, but you cannot disable the mixer on one without disabling it on the other. That is why it is crucial to have a device that allows ASIO to do it without having to disable mixer functions in the control panel.
Follow Ups:
"You cannot remove the mixer functions completely from your main soundcard and still use all the regular functions"You don't need to "remove mixer functions". ASIO mixer mixer functions are separate from WDM mixer functions, except where Windows is given "access" to ASIO volume sliders. This access is simply sharing functionalty - not proof at ALL that ASIO is somehow failing to talk directly to the hardware and not use the Windows Audio Stack.
"Using ASIO without disabling mixer functions still threads the stream through the main volume and bass/treble sliders, unless..."
Nope. ASIO bypasses the Windows Audio Stack completely. Always. Any "volume control" functionality is "lent" to windows from the ASIO mixer. Any routing through the Windows Audio Stack MUST be done via a "WDM" side of the device driver, since ASIO *CANNOT* route through the Windows Audio Stack. Again, if this "sharing" of level controls is concerning you, pick a non-ASIO device for the default Windows device and use the ASIO device for 2-channel only. Even then, the ASIO device WILL have "mixer" functions. Getting an ASIO device with no mixer functions (if even possible) is a waste of time. Just do not attenuate any sliders (or add gain) and you're fine.
There are DTS passthrough tests that are definitive proof of whether or not bit-perfect passthrough is going one. These tests, NOT SLIDER OPERATION, are the "acid test". Slider operation is not intuitive and causes much confusion as to what is being streamed where. You can believe that ASIO does not work if you want to, but you're worrying for nothing. Do some research, and I am sure you will come to the same conclusions about how ASIO streams audio differently than WDM drivers.
Cheers,
Presto
I have played with this for weeks and I can say for sure 100% that using my audigy4 with ASIO still passes the stream through the main volume and EQ mixer... and there is no way to tell what is "zero gain" or not... I can tell you that setting the sliders in the middle is NOT zero gain... it actually a negative gain for volume and somewhat a positive for the bass/treble.the ONLY way to get a clean stream is to: 1. remove the device from the mixer completely, but this removes compatability for anything that is not ASIO compatable. 2. use a "non wdm" device like a USB s/pdif device and use ASIO to bypass the windows mixer.
The sound difference between when the audigy4 is disconnected from the mixer is TOO MUCH compared to just using ASIO with it still connected... I am not lying to you when I tell you that. That final volume control and bass/treble control DOES add coloration, I hear it, it is night and day, and the only way to fix it while using the audigy is to remove the device from the mixer in the control panel. But as I said this is not optimal since it screws up anything that cannot use ASIO.
I don't know if you are arguing over semantics or not, but the difference is night and day. ASIO does not give a bit-perfect stream without disconnecting the mixer from the audigy in the control panel.
It doesn't matter anyway since I am using a USB to s/pdif device that is "non wdm" and I have a hagUSB coming that will even be better.
One thing I forgot to say... This could be an issue with ASIO4ALL since I am assuming it works like a wrapper to allow any card to use ASIO. I will try using my cad's own ASIO driver to see if that makes a difference. If using the audigy's own ASIO driver does completely bypass *ALL* the mixers then I will let you know, otherwise I am going to enjoy my hagUSB when it gets here.
You stumbled across yet another PC Audio myth."One thing I forgot to say... This could be an issue with ASIO4ALL since I am assuming it works like a wrapper to allow any card to use ASIO."
ASIO4ALL is a WDM ASIO wrapper. It basically adds latency control to a Kernel Streaming process and calls it "ASIO". It's not true ASIO - it was intended to give latency control to WDM card users. Audiophiles get "high" on the word ASIO, so they assumed that ASIO4ALL would "Get them ASIO" which is really not what is happening. If you need ASIO4ALL for a device in the first place, it's because you don't HAVE a recongnizable or functional ASIO driver, and need to "wrap" ASIO4ALL around a WDM driver. ASIO4ALL is not a true ASIO driver, nor is it a true "generic" ASIO driver for all devices. This would be impossible. It is simply an ASIO emulator to add latency control - something we really don't even need in 2 channel reproduction, unless long DSP processing times for crossover functions or EQ/room correction algorithms are causing dropouts.
The thing about ASIO4ALL versus kernel streaming is that you are still basically bypassing the Windows Audio Stack - you're just doing it in a slightly different way.
Using ASIO4ALL plus an ASIO output plugin will be piping bit-perfect audio to the same "pins" that a Kernel Streaming output plugin uses. The advantage of ASIO4ALL is that you can select different devices for input and output. But if you don't need that functionality, basic kernel streaming will get you the same SQ.
As for Audigy4, that's quite old tech now. I've seen numerous complaints on various forums about "buggy" ASIO drivers for that product. I am using ASIO drivers for the X-Fi X-treme Music and having no problems - just amazingly good sound for $125. The digital out is also supported under ASIO which is a nice touch.
The trick with Creative products is SHUTTING OFF what you don't want on!
Cheers,
Presto
Ok... here is the deal. Besides ASIO4ALL I have 3 creative ASIO outputs that are choosable in ASIO apps. The only one that works is this: "SB Audigy 4 ASIO 24/96" but there is also one that does not have 24/96 suffix and then one that just says creative asio, but the only one that works is the first one I listed.Here are my questions...
I have 44.1khz digital out selected in the audigy control panel, however I don't know if the 24/96 driver overrides this... I don't wantthe audigy resampling for obvious reasons. Also... this DOES bypass the dreaded bass/treble sliders but I still can control the volume with the master "play control" slider. How do I know what is zero gain? I don't know if it is in the middle, or turned all the way up... I don't know.
I know the audigy4 is older tech, but bit perfect from any card put though my DIP should be ok, plus the audigy is the latest creative card that has the features I want while being compatable with all my software... I have an x-fi music ed. that many games won't work at all with any of the advanced sound features like EAX and openAL... and there are other games that have audible artifacts. It is not the card either and the drivers *are* installing properly. The audigy4 works great with all games, all audio software, it has a dedicated digital IO port and not a lame "flexy jack", and if what I am after is a bit-perfect stream it shouldn't matter as much about onboard DACs and other tech.
I just need to know if using the 24/96 ASIO out is forcing upsampling and I need to know what volume slider seting is zero gain.
Yashu:Your concern about resampling is a good one - Audigy 2 cards were really famous for resampling everything to 48khz even if the "final sample rate" was 24/96. The Audigy 4 uses the same engine (I am told) as the Audigy 2. They just added ASIO support and used better DACs.
I think if you're using the NATIVE ASIO drivers with Foobar and the ASIO output plugin you should be okay. You do need to set your bitdepth to 32 bit when using the Otachan ASIO output plugins for Foobar. I do not believe this converts all bitdepths to 32 bit - it just opens a 32 bit "window" (like a container size) and whatever is played back uses 16, 24 or 32 of those bits.
If you are indeed getting audio out of the digital out using a NATIVE ASIO driver, then you might well be getting bitperfect playback.
Google the DTS file bitperfect test. If you can play back a 44.1 khz DTS file and an external decoder recognizes the signal AS a DTS file, then you KNOW you have never resampled that data.
If you don't have a receiver that displays the input stream data (bitdepth and samplerate) perhaps you could borrow one. It should say "44.1khz" and not "96khz". If you can manually select 44.1 khz, this is really a good sign.
Hope this helps.
Cheers,
Presto
I don't know what output you are referring to when you say "native"... all 3 are native to the card... but only one works, the 24/96 labeled one. I don't know if this resamples or not though.I can select 44.1 in the control panel, but again I don't even know if that does anything.
As for the 32bit thing, the two non 24/96 outputs list only 16bit not 32 in foobar, only the 24/96 one lists 32bit and that one works there just like in winamp like I described. My dac is supposed to be only a 16bit dac, but I see some people online say it will accept 24/96, so I don't know... and even if it could only take 16bit, it would not tell me whether it is 44.1 or 48khz... sigh. Maybe I could borrow a friend's a/v reciever for the DTS test.
I also still don't know what is "zero gain" with the sliders... This is THE most important thing that I need to figure out... because I could be losing all sorts of dynamic range by having this wrong. If I cannot find out what slider setting is for zero gain then I just can't use the card at all for my music.
I tried the "udial" sample test to try to see if I could tell where zero gain was by if I got clipping or not... well putting the slider all the way at the top doesn't clip, but it is louder then what I know for sure to be zero gain from a USB s/pdif adapter... so zero gain may be slider at 90%... there is just no way to know unless it is documented somewhere.
Yashu:I did some light reading on the Audigy 4.
It appears many users are complaining about the resampling issue with these cards, the same issue that was well known with the Audigy 2 series cards. (A4 uses the same engine as A2).
So, you may be getting a 44.1khz output, but if the card uses the Kmixer exclusively, then you've definately been resampled to and from 48khz.
The guys on the forums were talking about a unoffical driver to get the card to have a bitperfect output.
It doesn't look good for the Audigy 4, Yashu.
Oh, and to test slider positions, get a program called "virtual audio cable" and some recording software. You can patch the output of a device into the input of a recording device using a "virtual patch cable". This way, you can test what is played back for bit-transparency. Simply time-align the recorded material with the original, clip off the ends of both tracks and subtract them. A bit-perfect transfer will mean the subtraction is X-X=0 for each bit. The maximum sample should be zero. Anything other than zero, and you've had bits that have changed status in the process.
Hope this helps,
Cheers,
Presto
The card has a bitrate selection of 44.1, 48, and 96khz. This is for digital out.I don't know if ASIO overrides this or not, however... There is a chance that it may.
The virtual audio cable is interesting, because I bought a program back in the day for some production work called "wave clone" by the same guy.
I am going to attempt this VAC test but I hope I can get it working... Do you have any IM software? My e-mail is there but remove the spaces
I agree that there is just no way to know if it is resampling to 48 first and then back to whatever output I have selected... well other than the DTS bitperfect test, but I don't have an a/v receiver handy, and it does seem more trouble then it is worth. I saw that virtual audio cable was not a free download, so I scratched that idea since I would probably never use it but the one time. I do have a good USB s/pdif adapter coming, and I do have one that works right now but is of less quality and slightly less compatable with my DAC since it does not give a signal unless you are actually playing music, but it will get me by until I get my hagUSB. Right now I don't know what differences are jitter/ect related or related to the possible resampling. At least using the adapter I can relax a little and enjoy the music because I know I am getting an honest signal.I appreciate the help, and this issue shows that, as usual, when it comes to mass-market electronics, the simplest things are sometimes the most difficult.
Yashu:The problem is this: is the card resampling everything to 48K first, then REsampling to 44.1? The Audigy 2 series *did* do this. And I cannot say for sure how exactly the Audigy 4's ASIO driver works.
Personally, the more I dig into the background of this card, the more it's starting to seem like a good contender for the "cards to avoid" list. (Funny - I was thinking of getting one because of the good DACs they used on that card).
Seriously - keep it for games, movie watching, MP3 listening, everyday computer use... But your idea to get a bitperfect spdif out with USB is definately much simpler - plus you can have a fully functional sound setup under Windows while keeping your 2-channel audio separate and away from the Windows Audio Stack.
USB-> I2S DACs are all the rave around here, but many guys are getting great results using USB-> SPDIF or even PCI-> SPDIF to good external DACs. I think how much jitter one is dealing with depends on so many things that it's hard to tell who is getting what performance.
Aside from actually measuring jitter with a proven technique, these "I think I hear clock jitter" experiments are a little too subjective to be able choose one component over another. Unless one sounds GREAT and other is TOTALLY HORRIBLE!! :o) THen I guess it would be good enough.
CHeers,
Presto
I tried foobar since everyone here loves it... but it too will not work with the two ASIO outputs that I mentioned, but it gives an error message with both saying that the sample rate is not supported... but it works with the 24/96 output but I still don't know if it is resampling or not.Sigh... I am glad the hagUSB is coming.
nt
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